Plan B

General => Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: MegaPilot on March 18, 2020, 05:05:52 pm

Title: Gameplay improvements
Post by: MegaPilot on March 18, 2020, 05:05:52 pm
- Actually balance the gamemode. No more of this "all regular players in 1 team" bullshit when "regular player X" is president. ACTUALLY balance the gamemode. It should not be possible for 10 regulars to gang up in security/police to fight against 7 newbies in the terrorist class. Sadly all the regulars enjoy an easy president win.

- Stop people from camping in the civilian class. It hugely affects the gamemode when 10/20 people are playing as civilian. Max 30% of the server should be able to be in the civilian class. Actually force people to play the gamemode.
Example: https://imgur.com/a/LCdsSsG
14/24 people are playing as civilian..

- Civilian class is way too overpowered. Civilians should not be able to group together and be a threat to the president. No more sniper/saw/rifle for them. If they want to help/kill president, let them join the correct class. Why? Because the shitty balance system we have in place doesn't take civilians into account. If security/police are already outnumbering terrorists we have those civilians who want to "help the president" who are making the problem even worse...

- Can we get rid of the /holiday eng command please? The holiday is over. At least remove the spray can ffs.

- President should be allowed to use a Rustler. For some reason you guys allow it for a president to be on a Shamal. I am one of the best pilots in this server and I can tell you, on my own it is nearly impossible to shoot down a Shamal since it is so fast. Yet you allow this and forbid a president to fly a Rustler.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Zeta on March 18, 2020, 06:38:28 pm
good +1
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: PakoVH on March 18, 2020, 07:13:43 pm
- Actually balance the gamemode. No more of this "all regular players in 1 team" bullshit when "regular player X" is president. ACTUALLY balance the gamemode. It should not be possible for 10 regulars to gang up in security/police to fight against 7 newbies in the terrorist class. Sadly all the regulars enjoy an easy president win.

I agree, It was not fun to play when there are 3 terrorists fighting against 7 secs +5 civilians.
For me the /rc system should be the same in Level 0, Level 1, Level 2 and Level 3, not only in level 0 and level 1.
Another problem is that when a class is full you just need to reclass to the opposite team and then type /rc again and you will join the class that you wanted.

- Stop people from camping in the civilian class. It hugely affects the gamemode when 10/20 people are playing as civilian. Max 30% of the server should be able to be in the civilian class. Actually force people to play the gamemode.
Example: https://imgur.com/a/LCdsSsG
14/24 people are playing as civilian..
I believe that it can't be changed because most of regular players joins the Civilian class just to team up and fight other players or kill/protect the president.
 Well, the civilian class is supposed to "not affect the gamemode" but of course it is .
- Civilian class is way too overpowered. Civilians should not be able to group together and be a threat to the president. No more sniper/saw/rifle for them. If they want to help/kill president, let them join the correct class. Why? Because the shitty balance system we have in place doesn't take civilians into account. If security/police are already outnumbering terrorists we have those civilians who want to "help the president" who are making the problem even worse...
Well, you described perfectly why the civilian class is OP but in the last years the terrorist/police were not forced to follow the /duty, for example if you see a player in your opposite class you are supposed to kill him but if he's your friend you will not do that, this is the way about how this server works and it can't be changed.

- President should be allowed to use a Rustler. For some reason you guys allow it for a president to be on a Shamal. I am one of the best pilots in this server and I can tell you, on my own it is nearly impossible to shoot down a Shamal since it is so fast. Yet you allow this and forbid a president to fly a Rustler.
There are some ways to kill a president in shamal and a president flying a rustler will be OP if a good player pilots it but if a newbie president use a rustler [they always try to get one] he will die easily.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Miau on March 19, 2020, 12:06:13 am
I don't think the president is allowed to fly Shamals, right? They are just allowed to surf them. I think the possiblity of falling off moderates the risk-benefit of that strategy. About allowing them to fly Rustlers, big -1. There's very few people with enough motivation to try to catch up with a president in a Rustler.

I don't think holiday eng is real problem. I like weapons to be diverse. More diversity implies more imagination, different tactics and fun.

About all the other suggestions, I fully agree. This is an obvious problem when there are 10 online players and 8 of them are regulars all playing on the same side. Civilian class only makes it easier to bypass the team balance and make alternative alliances. These days it's not that noticeable, since there are more players to dilute the unbalance, but the problem will be back once COVID-19 is gone :)
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Singh on March 19, 2020, 05:16:24 am
Yes mega is right, most of the players choose civil class and that is why they easily kill the president by forming a group. If only the colts are given to  the civil class and the sniper, rifle and saw are removed then  they Will not be able to kill the president easily
 And by doing this, they will have to go the Terrorist class for trying and the idea is very good and it should be sure to apply.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: IDAN on March 19, 2020, 08:28:54 am
+1

Well you can do it , that only 20% of the online players will can join civ class. and that should be good.
30 players - 6 civs. it's should fix some issues that you talked about them.


And make more /duty from my idea, People should think about remove SWAT Class and think about add new class.
Maybe class that can kill all - Terrors Police Security and Presi of course.

Add new class is something that all the time consider , so why not make it to real?

Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Hicham on March 19, 2020, 08:59:23 am
didn't read the whole thing but megapilot is pretty mature so i bet it's a good idea so +1
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Specifer on March 19, 2020, 02:40:08 pm
To megapilot ,
    This is the best suggestion ever , most people just team up in civilian class and try to kill presi and if I shoot in their tyres , I'll get a message to do my duty . How can I differentiate which civilian is cilling or hunting presi when I'm in a haste ? If civilian they should be only allowed to challenge police that's it they are secluded from the duty . The correct ratio of President:Security:(Police+Swat):Terrorist:Civilian=1:n/6:n/8:7n/24:n/6 where n= no of players
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Carg on March 19, 2020, 03:58:35 pm
Setting a limit on civilians shouldn't be a thing. There are many game features locked behind the civilian class ( races/duels/events/admin stuff). Instead what could be done is to remove most of the weapons from civilian class, which has been suggested many times and people refused to accept it, cuz it would take away their chances to protect themself which is bullshit.

There are certain limits to our options to balance the gamemode. Making a system to make difference between regulars and non regulars and refusing to give them the chance to pick the class they want would be very difficult. Not to mention that since sniper and saw are free many regulars are playing as undercovers. There's still going to be this case where teams would be balanced untill a group of regulars/nonregulars decides to leave the game and the only thing that could be done in such case is dynamic class balancing, which would also lead to many problems.

Whats the point of removing /holiday eng when its been here for so long, not to mention that there's a map where you could get spray can from a pickup.

Rustlers are much more maneuverable than shamals, they are not faster, but have guns. Just as mia mentioned I dont know much players that would have the nerves to chase down a rustler.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: LuCa on March 19, 2020, 10:06:54 pm
FIRST REMOVE NSA.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Hito on March 20, 2020, 12:01:31 am
Being a Civilian = Simp
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Singh on March 20, 2020, 03:40:19 am
Lets Divide Civilian class into " Good team civilian  "    and "Bad Team civilian" .Good Team will Protect Presi and cannot take any dmg  to president.Whereas Bad Civil team will try to kill president.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Finisher on March 20, 2020, 08:30:27 am
Civilians ruin everything. I don’t care how long your reply is, it’s the truth.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Carg on March 20, 2020, 11:01:15 am
Lets Divide Civilian class into " Good team civilian  "    and "Bad Team civilian" .Good Team will Protect Presi and cannot take any dmg  to president.Whereas Bad Civil team will try to kill president.
Yeah? And why just not /rc o or /rc t? Whats the point of dividing the civ team, which is not a team. If the team you want to play is full either /donatehelp or play the other team. I would pick the other team if the team I want to play is full.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Altus_Demens on March 20, 2020, 03:55:12 pm
- Actually balance the gamemode. No more of this "all regular players in 1 team" bullshit when "regular player X" is president. ACTUALLY balance the gamemode. It should not be possible for 10 regulars to gang up in security/police to fight against 7 newbies in the terrorist class. Sadly all the regulars enjoy an easy president win.
+1, although I don't think it can be achieved that easily without the ELO system (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=1306.0). The first thing we could do is the autobalance feature, which is present in many other games.
Whenever someone quits/is removed or changes the class, the script should check the balance. If the teams are not balanced, an announce (like "Teams will be autobalanced in 15 seconds") pops up and after these 15 second the players, who joined the overpowered team the last (but not the presi/VP), are reclassed to the opposing one.
Example (very rough one). Say, we've got 7 good guys (cops + SWAT + security) and 7 terrorists. 2 terrorists leave the game. The script sees that there is a lack of terrorists, and after 15 seconds it reclasses the player, who was the last to join cops/SWAT/security, to terrorists.

One might say that it's unfair towards the players, because it restricts their ability to play the way they wish. I think that we should balance between keeping the gamemode for undefinite amount of new players and maintaining the comfort of the regulars, and, honestly, the first goal seems to be way more important for me.

- Stop people from camping in the civilian class. It hugely affects the gamemode when 10/20 people are playing as civilian. Max 30% of the server should be able to be in the civilian class. Actually force people to play the gamemode.
Example: https://imgur.com/a/LCdsSsG
14/24 people are playing as civilian..
+1. 30-40% of the player should be able to be civilians, but no more.

- Civilian class is way too overpowered. Civilians should not be able to group together and be a threat to the president. No more sniper/saw/rifle for them. If they want to help/kill president, let them join the correct class. Why? Because the shitty balance system we have in place doesn't take civilians into account. If security/police are already outnumbering terrorists we have those civilians who want to "help the president" who are making the problem even worse...
I agree with you, it's a big problem, and I don't know how to solve it properly. I don't like the radical solution of removing or nerfing the class either. However, I've got some thoughts:
This will both fix the balance issue (civilians won't be allowed to idle next to the presi/terrorists and surf their cars) and constant fights near the civilian spawns.

- Can we get rid of the /holiday eng command please? The holiday is over. At least remove the spray can ffs.
Sorry, I disagree, -1. Grenades and spray cans bring more diversity, more tactics to the game, sometimes allowing to win desperate fights.

- President should be allowed to use a Rustler. For some reason you guys allow it for a president to be on a Shamal. I am one of the best pilots in this server and I can tell you, on my own it is nearly impossible to shoot down a Shamal since it is so fast. Yet you allow this and forbid a president to fly a Rustler.
-1 either. The president shouldn't be a combat unit on themself. Besides, the tactics which do not imply the help of the securities, shouldn't exist, IMHO. Otherwise, what's the purpose of the securities?
If the president is allowed to drive Shamals, it should be restricted either. I would also remove the ability to ride bicycles, unless there is a way to make them destroyable.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Ahsoka_Tano on March 21, 2020, 06:54:49 pm

I agree with you, it's a big problem, and I don't know how to solve it properly. I don't like the radical solution of removing or nerfing the class either.
How is disabling vip weapons ( sniper and chainsaw) from the class not a solution?
I dont get it
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Altus_Demens on March 22, 2020, 03:43:05 pm
How is demolishing a house with a dirty word written on its wall not a solution to increase the speech culture level?

What you suggest, might work, but it will rather erase the whole class from the gamemode. My suggestion is an attempt to save it without leaving it as imbalanced as it is for today,
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Srex_Zangetsu on March 22, 2020, 05:02:21 pm
Carg pls f off with /rc, not always is that option available. And I don't like playing as a terrorist.
If the civilians were divided into the allied/hostile classes,then that wouldn't ruin the balance.
If the game is balanced,I won't be able to join as friendly civ and then i'll just play as a neutral civ and go around while nobody can harm me.
And that would also solve the civilian gang-up problem,wherein they can limitlessly join civs and gang-up on a certain class.
SWAT should be removed or another terro class be made. One that can spawn with armor so it can counter the existence of "security" class.
Also,autobalance would be good,but I disagree about the last player switching sides being forced to leave.What's the criteria with that?It's just discrimination.All players of the team with advantage should be given 15 seconds to switch sides manually. I fnobody changes,then a random player should be given a pop-up with a choice to either change to the opposite side or go neutral civilian class.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Ahsoka_Tano on March 22, 2020, 07:16:01 pm
What you suggest, might work, but it will rather erase the whole class from the gamemode. My suggestion is an attempt to save it without leaving it as imbalanced as it is for today,
The class will always be for:
- Exploring a certain map for anything (tactics new places etc)
- racing, dueling, being afk or chatting.
- Having fun by driving around and making some stunts
- And maybe trying to help out one of the sides (bad or good)
So the class will never die out.
If somebody wants to play the gamemode then civilian is not the class for it, they dont even recieve score.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: YoMama on March 22, 2020, 09:54:12 pm
There are some ways to kill a president in shamal and a president flying a rustler will be OP if a good player pilots it but if a newbie president use a rustler [they always try to get one] he will die easily.
Hey, here's a novel idea-- how about listening to the best pilots in the server when they tell you it's not OP? How about looking at all the other servers that treat Rustlers as normal vehicles? If the president kills himself immediately in a plane, he probably wasn't long for this world anyway.

There's very few people with enough motivation to try to catch up with a president in a Rustler.
That's not a Rustler problem; that's a culture problem. One person can usually take out a flying President anyway.

The president shouldn't be a combat unit on themself.
Glad you agree, when are we getting rid of /holiday eng and VIP weapons for the president? Any time you get over two people chasing a pilot of any skill level they're not in "combat unit" mode, they're in holy shit survival mode. If they're smart, they're probably looking for an escape on the ground.

Besides, the tactics which do not imply the help of the securities, shouldn't exist, IMHO. Otherwise, what's the purpose of the securities?
Quit with the bullshit. Everyone here knows that securities can easily help a flying president, and you of all people know that a president is far from invincible in a plane. If the securities aren't protecting, that's a separate issue and certainly not limited to planes.

I don't like the radical solution of removing or nerfing the class either. However, I've got some thoughts:
  • Forbid civilians to team up with anyone but the other civilians both by adding a rule and game mechanic improvements;
  • Remove the civilian spawns completely. Instead, let each civilian spawn at a random point of the map (possibly - spawn them high in the air and give a parachute).
This will both fix the balance issue (civilians won't be allowed to idle next to the presi/terrorists and surf their cars) and constant fights near the civilian spawns.
It's not a radical solution; it's how the civilian class always was, until regulars started to consider it a sandbox. You always were fighting to stay alive as a civilian in the past; all you had was a desert eagle and lag shooting. It was a compromise-- you gained the ability to attack anyone in exchange for being constantly attacked and killed by nearly everyone. Just because Tenshi turned the civilian class into a steaming pile of shit a long time ago doesn't mean we have to keep smelling it. Your suggestions are non-starters without getting rid of their access to VIP weapons.

I don't think holiday eng is real problem. I like weapons to be diverse. More diversity implies more imagination, different tactics and fun.
Grenades and spray cans bring more diversity, more tactics to the game, sometimes allowing to win desperate fights.
Translation: a command that lets you either blow people up make them helplessly frozen in a few seconds, and only the regulars know it. I still think those items should go back to being pickups that are obviously marked. I don't mind grenades, but in a server where the major theme is running, being able to freeze someone with a command seems a little OP.

I would also remove the ability to ride bicycles, unless there is a way to make them destroyable.
I agree

Civilians ruin everything. I don’t care how long your reply is, it’s the truth.
Kill the cancer (or at least control it); save the patient. It's one of the many things that are hostile to newbies and benefit regulars.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Altus_Demens on March 22, 2020, 11:40:05 pm
That's not a Rustler problem; that's a culture problem. One person can usually take out a flying President anyway.
I kinda agree with you. Whilst I don't question your personal effort of popularizing rustlers (your signature), how much did it help? I mean, what is the percentage of players affected to your (positive) propaganda? Not too big. So you can blame lazy players or culture, or anything, the truth is that the amount of players capable of "usually taking out a flying YoMama" is very low.

By the way, I think it's a big problem: the forum and everything related to it is too far away from a common newcommer. The most important things, discussions, decision pass them by.

Glad you agree, when are we getting rid of /holiday eng and VIP weapons for the president?
I don't know if you were sarcastic, but removing VIP weapons for the president sounds like a good idea. But not removing /holiday eng. A spray can and 3 grenades are the weapons of the last resort.

Quit with the bullshit. Everyone here knows that securities can easily help a flying president, and you of all people know that a president is far from invincible in a plane. If the securities aren't protecting, that's a separate issue and certainly not limited to planes.
I didn't say that it is limited to planes. But yeah, they rarely keep up.

It's not a radical solution; it's how the civilian class always was, until regulars started to consider it a sandbox. You always were fighting to stay alive as a civilian in the past; all you had was a desert eagle and lag shooting. It was a compromise-- you gained the ability to attack anyone in exchange for being constantly attacked and killed by nearly everyone. Just because Tenshi turned the civilian class into a steaming pile of shit a long time ago doesn't mean we have to keep smelling it. Your suggestions are non-starters without getting rid of their access to VIP weapons.
Honestly, it doesn't matter for me how it was in the past. I am struggling to find a way how to leave the class and fully integrate it in the gamemode without screwing up the balance.
My vision of a perfect civilian class is like the following: it should be a group of psychos who run across the map, bring chaos and act like vultures at the battlefield, harming both sides. That's how I try to play and that's how I want to see it.

The class will always be for:
- Exploring a certain map for anything (tactics new places etc)
- racing, dueling, being afk or chatting.
- Having fun by driving around and making some stunts
- And maybe trying to help out one of the sides (bad or good)
So the class will never die out.
If somebody wants to play the gamemode then civilian is not the class for it, they dont even recieve score.
Also that's the reason I definitely don't want to see the civilian class like that. It will decisively split up the players into two groups, one playing the gamemode and the other chilling and "sandboxing".

Translation: a command that lets you either blow people up make them helplessly frozen in a few seconds, and only the regulars know it. I still think those items should go back to being pickups that are obviously marked. I don't mind grenades, but in a server where the major theme is running, being able to freeze someone with a command seems a little OP.
Grenades can only be OP if they are thrown by a dozen of securities at the narrow entrance of yet another president's camping spot.
As for spray cans... They are mostly used to effectively counter that evil VIPs' chainsaw. I don't find it overpowered.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Srex_Zangetsu on March 23, 2020, 02:18:39 pm
I agree on president being able to fly Shamal,it'd be fun and not invincible either.Plus it's meaningful,flying in a fancy airplane,like a president should.

I don't think /holiday eng options should be completely removed.Instead,how about everyone spawn with 2-3 grenades each time they join/die?Spraycan is kinda crap,if it's present in the game then the extinguisher should be too. INSTEAD! How about we introduce remote explosive pickups or smth? They're challenging to use properly,and would require tactical thinking to make the best use out of them. But,of course,not too many. One-two per person.

I also think,if people complain about VIP weapons,why don't we remove sniper and saw completely? Everyone could have the rifle,or just VIPs,and all players would be able to choose any melee weapons for themselves at will and make it /favmelee or smth,and we could also get brass knuckles for fun.Yeah,katana would stop being a VIP weapon then.

And how about we get ejection for most aircrafts instead of just Rustler?Maybe even certain cars?Presidential car?

Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Altus_Demens on March 23, 2020, 02:57:59 pm
INSTEAD! How about we introduce remote explosive pickups or smth? They're challenging to use properly,and would require tactical thinking to make the best use out of them. But,of course,not too many. One-two per person.
Whilst it is a good idea, I am afraid that satchel charges are not synced in SAMP.

I also think,if people complain about VIP weapons,why don't we remove sniper and saw completely?
If there is a way to adjust and balance something, I am against removing it. Otherwise... If the majority thinks that civilians should not be able to use sniper and chainsaw, I'd stick it to removing it completely.

all players would be able to choose any melee weapons for themselves at will and make it /favmelee or smth,and we could also get brass knuckles for fun.Yeah,katana would stop being a VIP weapon then.
And how about we get ejection for most aircrafts instead of just Rustler?Maybe even certain cars?Presidential car?
Good ideas, +1. As for the ejection, I am not sure if any cars should have it. But helis definitely should - it's hardly possible to escape from a burning heli.

Anyways, let's stick to discussing MegaPilot's suggestions. Or Jonne will have hard time trying to extract anything from this topic.



I had a talk with Carg and he kindly suggested some improvements to my ideas.

The civilians can spawn in some kind of a lobby without any restrictions, but also without weapons and access to the game world. They can duel, race or idle, as they usually do. There should also be a "portal" to the game world; it will apply the restrictions I suggested earlier, so it won't let anyone in if more than 30-40% of players are civilians in the game world. Those passing through the portal will spawn at random points in the skies with para.

Also, the autobalance feature I suggested earlier can turn dangerous if a pilot of the rustlers carrying the president gets reclassed, for example. So it would be better just to throw the members of the overpowered team to the class selection menu after their death.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: LPCOLTER on March 24, 2020, 06:05:22 am
Being a Civilian = Simp
truth speaks for itself
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Srex_Zangetsu on March 26, 2020, 01:16:30 pm
INSTEAD! How about we introduce remote explosive pickups or smth? They're challenging to use properly,and would require tactical thinking to make the best use out of them. But,of course,not too many. One-two per person.
Whilst it is a good idea, I am afraid that satchel charges are not synced in SAMP.

I also think,if people complain about VIP weapons,why don't we remove sniper and saw completely?
If there is a way to adjust and balance something, I am against removing it. Otherwise... If the majority thinks that civilians should not be able to use sniper and chainsaw, I'd stick it to removing it completely.

all players would be able to choose any melee weapons for themselves at will and make it /favmelee or smth,and we could also get brass knuckles for fun.Yeah,katana would stop being a VIP weapon then.
And how about we get ejection for most aircrafts instead of just Rustler?Maybe even certain cars?Presidential car?
Good ideas, +1. As for the ejection, I am not sure if any cars should have it. But helis definitely should - it's hardly possible to escape from a burning heli.

Anyways, let's stick to discussing MegaPilot's suggestions. Or Jonne will have hard time trying to extract anything from this topic.



I had a talk with Carg and he kindly suggested some improvements to my ideas.

The civilians can spawn in some kind of a lobby without any restrictions, but also without weapons and access to the game world. They can duel, race or idle, as they usually do. There should also be a "portal" to the game world; it will apply the restrictions I suggested earlier, so it won't let anyone in if more than 30-40% of players are civilians in the game world. Those passing through the portal will spawn at random points in the skies with para.

Also, the autobalance feature I suggested earlier can turn dangerous if a pilot of the rustlers carrying the president gets reclassed, for example. So it would be better just to throw the members of the overpowered team to the class selection menu after their death.

So,when can we expect these changes?
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Carg on March 26, 2020, 05:19:39 pm
INSTEAD! How about we introduce remote explosive pickups or smth? They're challenging to use properly,and would require tactical thinking to make the best use out of them. But,of course,not too many. One-two per person.
Whilst it is a good idea, I am afraid that satchel charges are not synced in SAMP.

I also think,if people complain about VIP weapons,why don't we remove sniper and saw completely?
If there is a way to adjust and balance something, I am against removing it. Otherwise... If the majority thinks that civilians should not be able to use sniper and chainsaw, I'd stick it to removing it completely.

all players would be able to choose any melee weapons for themselves at will and make it /favmelee or smth,and we could also get brass knuckles for fun.Yeah,katana would stop being a VIP weapon then.
And how about we get ejection for most aircrafts instead of just Rustler?Maybe even certain cars?Presidential car?
Good ideas, +1. As for the ejection, I am not sure if any cars should have it. But helis definitely should - it's hardly possible to escape from a burning heli.

Anyways, let's stick to discussing MegaPilot's suggestions. Or Jonne will have hard time trying to extract anything from this topic.



I had a talk with Carg and he kindly suggested some improvements to my ideas.

The civilians can spawn in some kind of a lobby without any restrictions, but also without weapons and access to the game world. They can duel, race or idle, as they usually do. There should also be a "portal" to the game world; it will apply the restrictions I suggested earlier, so it won't let anyone in if more than 30-40% of players are civilians in the game world. Those passing through the portal will spawn at random points in the skies with para.

Also, the autobalance feature I suggested earlier can turn dangerous if a pilot of the rustlers carrying the president gets reclassed, for example. So it would be better just to throw the members of the overpowered team to the class selection menu after their death.

So,when can we expect these changes?
In about two years
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Singh on March 27, 2020, 03:03:23 am
INSTEAD! How about we introduce remote explosive pickups or smth? They're challenging to use properly,and would require tactical thinking to make the best use out of them. But,of course,not too many. One-two per person.
Whilst it is a good idea, I am afraid that satchel charges are not synced in SAMP.

I also think,if people complain about VIP weapons,why don't we remove sniper and saw completely?
If there is a way to adjust and balance something, I am against removing it. Otherwise... If the majority thinks that civilians should not be able to use sniper and chainsaw, I'd stick it to removing it completely.

all players would be able to choose any melee weapons for themselves at will and make it /favmelee or smth,and we could also get brass knuckles for fun.Yeah,katana would stop being a VIP weapon then.
And how about we get ejection for most aircrafts instead of just Rustler?Maybe even certain cars?Presidential car?
Good ideas, +1. As for the ejection, I am not sure if any cars should have it. But helis definitely should - it's hardly possible to escape from a burning heli.

Anyways, let's stick to discussing MegaPilot's suggestions. Or Jonne will have hard time trying to extract anything from this topic.



I had a talk with Carg and he kindly suggested some improvements to my ideas.

The civilians can spawn in some kind of a lobby without any restrictions, but also without weapons and access to the game world. They can duel, race or idle, as they usually do. There should also be a "portal" to the game world; it will apply the restrictions I suggested earlier, so it won't let anyone in if more than 30-40% of players are civilians in the game world. Those passing through the portal will spawn at random points in the skies with para.

Also, the autobalance feature I suggested earlier can turn dangerous if a pilot of the rustlers carrying the president gets reclassed, for example. So it would be better just to throw the members of the overpowered team to the class selection menu after their death.

So,when can we expect these changes?

Never.No One Focus these suggestions  these are just useless, we are just wasting our time.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Specifer on March 27, 2020, 06:08:58 am
First all discussions have a meaning and none is wasteful if no one listens . The changes we ask are healthy for gameplay but the script of our convenience makes the game more susceptible to bugs which is in need of bug testing and resolving .it is accomplishable but mods(scripters) don't want to take it in hand since it's better this way (as they think ) .But for now the maximum civilian list should be modified .
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: swagger on March 28, 2020, 08:39:19 pm
+1
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: YoMama on March 30, 2020, 12:23:12 am
Honestly, it doesn't matter for me how it was in the past. I am struggling to find a way how to leave the class and fully integrate it in the gamemode without screwing up the balance.
This is a curious statement. I just gave you my historical perspective on how the balance was screwed up, but you simultaneously dismiss it and say you're struggling with how to fix it?

Quit with the bullshit. Everyone here knows that securities can easily help a flying president, and you of all people know that a president is far from invincible in a plane. If the securities aren't protecting, that's a separate issue and certainly not limited to planes.
I didn't say that it is limited to planes. But yeah, they rarely keep up.
Then you can't use that an argument against letting the President fly. To do otherwise is dishonest.

Whilst I don't question your personal effort of popularizing rustlers (your signature), how much did it help? I mean, what is the percentage of players affected to your (positive) propaganda? Not too big.
How the hell do you know? I certainly don't pretend to know how many people have taken more of an interest in Rustlers, but I can tell you that I had two people following me around/chatting with me yesterday because of my guide, and I hadn't played in months. I had other questions about planes that I couldn't have dreamed about before the guide. From a cursory look, it's at least one of the most, if not the most-viewed topics on this form that isn't stickied or off-topic. I'm pretty disappointed that you so confidently say something like that with absolutely no evidence to back it up, in spite of obvious and easily-accessible evidence to the contrary.

... the truth is that the amount of players capable of "usually taking out a flying YoMama" is very low.
I hereby define "YoMama's law"-- that any discussion about aircraft in this community will inevitably devolve into people who don't know much about them bringing up good pilots as a (bullshit) counterargument. This is in spite of the fact that bringing them up as counterarguments invalidates their point somewhat-- if their assertion that there are a only few good pilots is true, then it's probably a pretty fair fight for the vast majority of people.

Again, I'm pretty disappointed that you can be so arrogant. You're telling me that you know better than I do how difficult it is for me to survive when flying. Sure, when you've got one person vs someone like me, chances are I will come out on top, but I've written here time and time again that adding just one person against me makes it significantly more difficult for me. When I see two planes coming at me, I get to the ground if my security has been shot down. If you're the President, the whole point is that many people are chasing you at a time-- I don't fly for long, if at all, as President for this reason.

I'm tired of being a broken record here. I've spent more than 10% of my time playing this game successfully surviving as President ((303*.25hr)=75, 75/645 hrs). I've failed as President 300 times, we'll conservatively assume that those runs are 6 minutes long. That means I've spent 105/645 hrs, or around 15% of my time in this game, playing as the President. That's just in this server. You, by contrast, have survived as President 8 times, for two of your 1600 hours; you've died 94 times; using the same assumptions that's 9.4 hours for 11.4 hours of Presidential play in total. That's less than 1% of your total time and a little more than a tenth of the time I've played as President. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I may have a little more experience playing as President than you do, as well as a lot more flying experience. You certainly have plenty of experience chasing the President, which includes chasing me, but I've always been surprised to see you claiming things that games we've played together usually contradict. My suggestion for you is to find some evidence that you didn't pull out of your ass, then reenter this debate. Better yet, learn to fly better, play as the President more, gain some perspective, then reenter this debate. This world needs less people who expect to be taken seriously simply because they're overconfident, not more of them.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Altus_Demens on March 30, 2020, 04:15:44 am
I am marvelling at your ability of turning my arguments upside down and clinging to my words. All is fair in defending your point of view, right? It seems that my English skills are not sufficient to express myself - I apologize for that, apparently I have no flair for foreign languages and I used to have bad marks for them in the school.

This is a curious statement. I just gave you my historical perspective on how the balance was screwed up, but you simultaneously dismiss it and say you're struggling with how to fix it?
You perfectly know that the history of this server does interest me. However, I don't understand your binary logic. What I suggest is a new way of integrating the civilians in the gamemode. Yes, I want them to take part in the gamemode. I want to make it more fair and balanced. What's wrong with it? I don't like the state of affairs which existed before the "balance was screwed up", as you said. I am not happy with the current state of affairs. I suggest the third option. Ceterum, I humbly beg you to try to understand what I mean and I apologize for possible misunderstanding due to the way I express myself.

Then you can't use that an argument against letting the President fly. To do otherwise is dishonest.
How the hell do you know? I certainly don't pretend to know how many people have taken more of an interest in Rustlers, but I can tell you that I had two people following me around/chatting with me yesterday because of my guide, and I hadn't played in months. I had other questions about planes that I couldn't have dreamed about before the guide. From a cursory look, it's at least one of the most, if not the most-viewed topics on this form that isn't stickied or off-topic. I'm pretty disappointed that you so confidently say something like that with absolutely no evidence to back it up, in spite of obvious and easily-accessible evidence to the contrary.
Quaint. You are accusing me of arranging the facts, whilst I simply shared my observations. I'll repeat myself. First of all, I said that your "positive propaganda" does have an effect (you're not probably going to believe it: even I, an arrogant freak who you make me look like, bothered to learn something new from it and to fly a bit better), and it's good that your topic has so many vews. Nevertheless, I don't see too many players, especially newbies, who rely on flying as on their basic strategy of attacking, surviving and playing in general. Once again, it is my subjective opinion based on my subjective observations, not a fact backed up by throughoutly analyzed statistics, not the official position of the administration. If I am wrong, if I am a colour-blind who sees blue instead of red, correct me, explain me that I am wrong and I will gladly accept it. Your argument of two people who contacted you after your months of inactivity is as subjective, yet I don't start yelling about you using dishonest methods of discussing.

Now, let me recover the whole quote, not the part you preferred to cut:
That's not a Rustler problem; that's a culture problem. One person can usually take out a flying President anyway.
I kinda agree with you. Whilst I don't question your personal effort of popularizing rustlers (your signature), how much did it help? I mean, what is the percentage of players affected to your (positive) propaganda? Not too big. So you can blame lazy players or culture, or anything, the truth is that the amount of players capable of "usually taking out a flying YoMama" is very low.
What does your statement about "one person" mean? It can be applied for anything. One SMG fighter can usually take out another SMG fighter anyway. One security can usually take out a terrorist anyway. Or a terrorist can take out a security.
It is obvious that two more or less equally skilled players have more or less equal chances of taking each other out in a fair fight. However, you also said about the "culture problem". What did it mean? I might have been wrong, but I interpreted as "people are too lazy (unmotivated, unwilling) to learn to flight and to be able to take down an experienced rustler user". And yes... Subjectively, I think that it is true. Ceterum, I humbly beg you to try to understand what I mean and I apologize for possible misunderstanding due to the way I express myself.

Again, I'm pretty disappointed that you can be so arrogant. You're telling me that you know better than I do how difficult it is for me to survive when flying.
YoMama, where exactly did I say that, in my opinion, surviving with rustler (and generally by any means but having most of the VIPs in your team) is simple? That should the president reach the rustler and climb in the skies, they are the winner? Yes, you are right, I have enough experience of chasing the presidents, and I know very well that surviving is way tougher than attacking with more or less equal teams. I don't know why you attribute something to me, and then bravely denounce it. It is obvious that, if the attackers are motivated enough (usually by the newbie or the person they don't particularly like as a president), they will reach them anywhere, on the ground, at seas, in the skies. Nobody would withstand a three times superior force.

I don't want to avoid the subject, but since you dissected my statistics... Yes, I only have 8 out of 102 survivals, and each of them is precious for me. I rarely have a mood to be president, and I try not to do it unless I am certain that I'll have a superior force after me. That's how I prefer to play the games, and it doesn't mean that I am better or worse than anyone. I might lose 100 times, but a single victory where everything was unclear until the last minute, truly excites me; at least 6 of these 8 survivals fall under this definition. That's it.

My suggestion for you is to find some evidence that you didn't pull out of your ass, then reenter this debate.
Ah, how subtle, how refined. I suggest you to learn to discuss things correctly and to realize that other people may have the opinions different from yours, even completely mirrored, and it doesn't mean that you are a shiny D'Artagnan on a horseback and they are midgets.



Tl;dr: I'll repeat why I personally don't want to see the presidents capable of flying rustler. It's my opinion which means as much as the opinion of any other player, no more or less.
 - "There's very few people with enough motivation to try to catch up with a president in a Rustler." (c) Mia (I didn't want to repeat something after the others without adding anything from myself, but ok):
 - The president should not be a combat unit on themself (yes, VIP features and/or holiday should probably be nerfed too)
 - The strategies which leave the securities behind should be at least discouraged (as for the historical perspectives: YoMama, do you remember that the presidents were not able to drive NRGs back in the distant past? <- apparently it's not true, look here (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=5964.msg52960#msg52960))

I won't reply here regarding this issue anymore, I don't think I can make myself more clear. The players will decide as they like. However, the biggest shame is that the majority of the players on the server don't even know about the existance of this discussion, and we won't hear their opinions.



P.S. Honestly, I see no reasons to make this personal. After one recent topic I don't know how to bow and scrape even more in order not to offend anyone, as I am never willing to do it when discussing things. Here is my hand; please, don't hold any grudges as that's not something I have meant.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: YoMama on March 30, 2020, 10:26:07 pm
I got a little pissed off when I wrote my last reply; I'm sorry. I tend to get annoyed when discussing this kind of thing because the debate gets so repetitive.

What I suggest is a new way of integrating the civilians in the gamemode. Yes, I want them to take part in the gamemode. I want to make it more fair and balanced. What's wrong with it? I don't like the state of affairs which existed before the "balance was screwed up", as you said. I am not happy with the current state of affairs. I suggest the third option. Ceterum, I humbly beg you to try to understand what I mean and I apologize for possible misunderstanding due to the way I express myself.
The "third option" is hardly a change-- the problem is not that civilians team up, it's that they team up with the most powerful weapons in the game. It doesn't matter whether or not they spawn together or team up with other classes; they're way more powerful than they should be.

YoMama, where exactly did I say that, in my opinion, surviving with rustler (and generally by any means but having most of the VIPs in your team) is simple?
You didn't, but you did imply that few people are able to shoot me down when I'm flying. I have written, repeatedly and over many years, that any pilot can be shot down much more easily by adding a second person. Many people have shot me down individually.

I don't want to avoid the subject, but since you dissected my statistics... Yes, I only have 8 out of 102 survivals, and each of them is precious for me. I rarely have a mood to be president, and I try not to do it unless I am certain that I'll have a superior force after me. That's how I prefer to play the games, and it doesn't mean that I am better or worse than anyone. I might lose 100 times, but a single victory where everything was unclear until the last minute, truly excites me; at least 6 of these 8 survivals fall under this definition. That's it.
My intent was not to belittle your statistics. As you know, I also don't like making things easy for myself as President. I respect your choices as to how you play the game; I wish other people thought similarly. I brought up your statistics because I feel that it's not fair for people with relatively little experience playing as President to make claims about other people being capable of taking the President out in x situation. This isn't limited to you. Nearly every time this debate resurfaces, comments from both sides surface, but I rarely see a novel point against the President flying Rustlers from someone with a lot of flying experience and experience as the President. I'm sick of them being considered on equal footing, because to me they simply aren't.

My suggestion for you is to find some evidence that you didn't pull out of your ass, then reenter this debate.
Ah, how subtle, how refined. I suggest you to learn to discuss things correctly and to realize that other people may have the opinions different from yours, even completely mirrored, and it doesn't mean that you are a shiny D'Artagnan on a horseback and they are midgets.
I could have said it in a nicer way, but my point remains the same. Your best points have to do with the culture here, which isn't really a Rustler problem. The worst points here are just wrong to me, contradicted by my experience flying. There isn't a nicer way of putting that. It certainly isn't limited to you.

Tl;dr: I'll repeat why I personally don't want to see the presidents capable of flying rustler. It's my opinion which means as much as the opinion of any other player, no more or less.
You're entitled to your opinion, but with the qualification that you don't have nearly as much experience in this area as some of those on the other side of this debate. I'm okay with you saying that you don't like it. I'm not okay with you or anyone else saying things that contradict my knowledge.

- "There's very few people with enough motivation to try to catch up with a president in a Rustler." (c) Mia (I didn't want to repeat something after the others without adding anything from myself, but ok):
Again, this is a culture problem, not an argument against letting him fly.

- The strategies which leave the securities behind should be at least discouraged (as for the historical perspectives: YoMama, do you remember that the presidents were not able to drive NRGs back in the distant past?)
Another culture problem. Regarding the NRGs: no, because I don't think that's true. I'd be interested to know where you head that from-- perhaps it predates me. My understanding is that way back when, things used to be pretty permissive. I never remember the President not being able to use NRGs; in fact I remember it as the dominant strategy because there were too many people to fight off-- people who were playing the game instead of fucking around as civilians.

- The president should not be a combat unit on themself (yes, VIP features and/or holiday should probably be nerfed too)
I don't think this makes the President a combat unit if people are properly playing the game (like if half of them aren't civilians?). Anything more than one person chasing means the President is on the run, not fighting, just like on the ground. He's certainly not as much of a combat unit as he is in an FBI Rancher with 10 securities on it, or in Area 69 with a bunch of security people and grenades.

This is, in my opinion, the best argument against the President flying Rustlers. However, it neglects the huge tradeoff here of the severe penalty, easily death, that the President pays by flying. It implies that a flying President can defend himself against attack, which is only true if no one is chasing him (just the same as being on the ground). It reduces to the culture problem again. It's not a good argument.


However, the biggest shame is that the majority of the players on the server don't even know about the existance of this discussion, and we won't hear their opinions.
Definitely agree there.
Title: Re: Gameplay improvements
Post by: Altus_Demens on April 02, 2020, 12:03:42 am
I didn't want to reply in order to let the others express their opinions (I am sure that everyone is well aware about our points of view and arguments ;D), but I have to add a little remark.

I had a talk with our old-timer COBRA[PPLV] and he said that in fact the presidents were always allowed to drive NRGs. So my bad here, disregard that statement of mine, please.