Author Topic: [Added]Make VIP features more fair  (Read 14702 times)

Offline YoMama

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[Added]Make VIP features more fair
« on: March 09, 2018, 02:31:12 am »
I'm finally suggesting this because I don't want to be misinterpreted, and it seems that no one else will.

Simply put, VIPs are overpowered and complacent. It's blatantly obvious that we have access to overpowered weapons, most of us simply for paying a few bucks years ago. Most games I play offer paid weapons that aren't all-around better, but give someone abilities that allow them to play differently, but don't necessarily make them much more powerful, if at all.

It used to be more this way, pre-lagcomp. Snipers were useful if someone was standing around, but that was about it. Even if you were very good at lead-aiming, they simply weren't that great. Chainsaws remain the same; they still require aiming ahead and a target that either makes a costly mistake or is unlucky. Back then, I wanted to be a VIP because I wanted to mod my cars.

This is no longer the case. The elephant in the room in this debate is the sniper. It went from "meh" to "dominate most people in range without one" once lagcomp was enabled. I don't like lag-comped snipers. I don't care who has them, I think they're way too overpowered. Few VIPs seem to see this as a problem, because "hey that's what we paid for, right?". The sniper is basically impossible to escape except by getting out of line-of-sight if someone has reasonable aim, it takes down way too much health, it stuns you on foot so you get hit even more when you're trying to escape, it pops tires with a shot, this list goes on and on. There is no real disadvantage.

This is fucked up. The point of having VIPs is to fund the server, and in exchange, give the people funding it some cool stuff. The ideal VIP donor (not customer) wants the server to succeed and grow, and the donation system rewards that without fucking up the server. The current VIP system doesn't do this. It allow the subset of players which has money to waste to become far more powerful than the rest. The server may gain funding, but for the wrong reasons and with bad effects. Instead of having a nicely-funded, fair server, we have a nicely-funded server with some non-VIPs for the VIPs to use as sniper target practice, and other VIPs for the VIPs to play against. Yes, it's possible to play as a non-VIP against VIPs, but it's not fun (unless you're like me, and enjoy being at a disadvantage) and often makes it painfully obvious that "paying for VIP" often means "paying for success"

We also have a VIP section on the forum, in which additional toys and advantages are suggested for players who contributed once to the server, without any input from the players they'd like to use them against. This is what we've created:
I had a friend who tried PTP out because I asked him time and time again. And he did. And he quit, because according to him, the VIPs are "too OP".
When discussing the possible removal of TransFender ingame, I was told
Quote
We are making those features disable for other player to increase the demand of VIP
We now have VIPs spouting bullshit to basically keep the advantages to themselves, as (1)[H]nZ88 points out.

In my opinion, this is the wrong approach. I've seen talk of removing /holiday eng and decreasing the M4 skill for the police, which all just stinks of people trying to get snipers even stronger than they already are. With every change one should make sure that players are on a somewhat level playing field. If that is not the case, the non-vip playerbase will decrease and keep decreasing. If there's no non-vips then there's noone left to buy VIP, if that makes sense. I've dealt with the same issue in other games and I've seen servers where they massively overbuff VIPs which leads to a declining playerbase.
I am the one who suggested removing /holiday eng and decreasing M4 skill, and while I still stand behind those suggestions, I agree that we need bigger changes before we can even get into making smaller adjustments like those. While I resent being lumped in as someone looking to increase VIP vs. non-VIP inequality, I'm not surprised that it happened, given the VIP culture nowadays. (1)[H]nZ88 is right- we should be trying to fix the inequality issue, and I have been part of the problem by dancing around it in my suggestions. If we don't, at a basic level it just mean and small-minded, but at a higher level, we hurt the server that our donations were intended to help.

TL;DR:


What do I think we should do about the unfairness? I think we have at least two reasonable courses of action for the weapons problem:
  • Make overpowered weapons less powerful through scripting and/or by turning them into pickups so they aren't always available.
OR
  • Disable lagcomp, since it doesn't make sense with the gamemode anyway and made the sniper extremely overpowered.
I know removing fast skins was also proposed and nixed by Jonne, but I think they're pretty obviously unfair and I think that it should be reconsidered. If anyone's got other ideas, post them below. If anyone thinks that it's unreasonable to remove or make some VIP features more fair, remember that the purpose of donation is to help the server, not to help you. Also keep in mind that while you may be a fantastic player, it doesn't really show it off that well if you frequently use an obviously overpowered VIP feature that you paid for against players who don't have access to it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 02:52:55 pm by Jonne »

Offline Miau

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2018, 03:40:04 am »
This can't be done for the same reason fast skins couldn't be removed. And there was a large part of the community for removing fast skins...
Oh! I don't want to fight you, Jorah the Andal. What do I have to gain? If I win, I'm the shit who killed an old man. If I lose, I'm the shit who was killed by an old man.

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Offline MnMs

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2018, 03:55:45 am »
This can't be done for the same reason fast skins couldn't be removed. And there was a large part of the community for removing fast skins...

Um why is that so mia?

Offline BugsBunny

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2018, 05:45:19 am »
This can't be done for the same reason fast skins couldn't be removed. And there was a large part of the community for removing fast skins...
Nah you just can block them like the vicepres and president main skin ,damn you are a very good coder indeed

Offline Shark_The_Helicopter

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2018, 06:03:29 am »

Should've added this great quote from a player classified as one that helps the server.

Quote
Im buying vip just bcz of the fastskin, sniper , and nitro. If it gets removed there wont be a point in the vips.
u pay for ur overpowered stuff. If they wanna be overpowered let them pay :) if not, suffer is suffer :D
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Offline YoMama

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2018, 08:30:50 am »
This can't be done for the same reason fast skins couldn't be removed. And there was a large part of the community for removing fast skins...

Um why is that so mia?
Good question- if you're going to point to the terms, I don't see the conflict. We don't allow bugs, so why do we allow bugged skins that give a huge advantage?

If they bought VIP because they thought it would let them basically abuse bugs legally and not because they wanted to help the server, why does that even matter? Just because they thought the terms meant something that they don't isn't a reason to protect bugged skins that are obviously unfair.

It's not like you're giving anyone else an advantage over VIPs by removing fast skins. You're just making things more fair, which, in the long run, is better for our community. Are the existing VIP features like tuning at will and the ability to force reclass not good enough?

I understand feeling uncomfortable about removing features that people may claim to have donated for, but it's not like they don't already have enough advantages over the rest of the server, or like everyone donated for fast skins. Regardless, it's not worth humoring a small group of people who donated for the wrong reasons at the expense of non-VIPs and anyone who cares about reasonably fair play.

Should've added this great quote from a player classified as one that helps the server.

Quote
Im buying vip just bcz of the fastskin, sniper , and nitro. If it gets removed there wont be a point in the vips.
u pay for ur overpowered stuff. If they wanna be overpowered let them pay :) if not, suffer is suffer :D
This server was largely a departure from the "you're either in the club or you're fucked" style that Tenshi went by. However, I think it's unintentionally being continued by giving VIPs overpowered features that for whatever reason aren't being limited.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 08:45:28 am by YoMama »

Offline IDAN

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2018, 08:55:33 am »
Bullshit
You know how much Non-VIP players can kill me 1vs1?

It not weapons its not features - It's Skills

i paid to make this server run more time...

what now people will cry that i can tune my car?

Offline Madman

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2018, 09:48:32 am »
Yomama try to play with keyboard sometimes.Some players in PTP doesn't deserve it.(I'm not saying all of them just the players you know who are they)
-1
menace> {33CCFF}[4] {FFFFFF}SMALL PENIS IRAN DOGS
menace> {33CCFF}[4] {FFFFFF}SMALL PENIS IRAN DOGS
Dr.MaDMaN[GgT]> {33CCFF}[3] {FFFFFF}Retarded mode is on
DedeceK> {33CCFF}[27] {FFFFFF}LOL
DedeceK> {33CCFF}[27] {FFFFFF}madman he wanan mute again

Offline Shark_The_Helicopter

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2018, 09:59:33 am »
Bullshit
You know how much Non-VIP players can kill me 1vs1?

It not weapons its not features - It's Skills

i paid to make this server run more time...

what now people will cry that i can tune my car?

Lol that skill argument again, skill only helps to maximize weapon potential it can't go beyond it's limit.

Snipers have the obvious zoom and power advantage, it's higher than one's fookin draw distance on average condition.  It's damage is literally second to none here(Miniguns and Rockets aren't available),Rifle's damage is weaker than Deagle which is more agile to use with.

Running Saws's 5/5 damage cannot be surpassed by any melee weapon all of which are Walking ones,except maybe Golf Club not to mention it isn't Lagcomped.

Most of the VIPs were already complaining in Christmas about Lvl0s killing them with snipers and yelling ''hurr durr undercover clan shit''.

Nitro can be literally be spammed without limits and that's huge boost to anybody who knows what to do about it and now the Transfender and Mod Shops have a chance of getting closed.

 

Yomama try to play with keyboard sometimes.Some players in PTP doesn't deserve it.(I'm not saying all of them just the players you know who are they)
-1

He uses keyboard too lol, he just uses joystick for flying which is much more convenient than keyboard one and because he was used to the Vice City Cam.

Deciding who deserves equal treatment or not is not upto us. All players are treated equal, even for those 'some' the majority shouldn't suffer. It's pointless.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 10:03:22 am by Lohit_The_Noob »
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Offline Ege

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2018, 12:30:47 pm »
Gotta love those reactions :D

Honestly I'd like to have some changes about sniper (not that pickup thing tho) just to see how it'd be, it's obviously by far the most op thing in the server right now.

I'm fine with the rest of the features (except fast skins, I'm against those since their existence), they don't give that huge of an advantage compared to sniper.

Offline Curry

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2018, 12:50:06 pm »
I bought my VIP back in 2010 for €16,00. I still have it today.

My suggestion: Make VIP €5,00 or €10,00 a month.

€20,00 for permanent VIP status is way too low of an amount, I think every VIP would agree with me. €5,00 per month would also give the players who can't afford €20,00 at once (or those who want to try it out) to just donate €5,00.

Removing the VIP status of players who are banned for serious offenses like hacking would also be a great thing, just saying.

Quote
Disable lagcomp
If that happens I'm definitely out of here.

Quote
Make overpowered weapons less powerful through scripting and/or by turning them into pickups so they aren't always available.
Make them less powerful? Might as well start using a rifle then.

Quote
remember that the purpose of donation is to help the server, not to help you.
Nah, it's definitely to help myself (and friends). I really don't care who pays for the server, it's not that much anyway.

Quote
it doesn't really show it off that well if you frequently use an obviously overpowered VIP feature that you paid for against players who don't have access to it.
You do realize that if what you are proposing happens, almost no one will donate ever again.

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Nitro can be literally be spammed without limits and that's huge boost to anybody who knows what to do about it and now the Transfender and Mod Shops have a chance of getting closed.
Nitro isn't that big of an advantage.

Quote
We don't allow bugs, so why do we allow bugged skins that give a huge advantage?
This server does allow a few bugs.

Quote
like everyone donated for fast skins. Regardless, it's not worth humoring a small group of people who donated for the wrong reasons at the expense of non-VIPs and anyone who cares about reasonably fair play.
Yes, 90% of the vips donated for fast skins.

I think fast skins are pretty fair, they allow me to stand a chance against 300+ ping players.

Quote
"paying for VIP" often means "paying for success"
Yes, so?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:58:36 pm by Curry »

Offline Hito

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2018, 12:58:24 pm »
Increase Rifle dmg

Offline Miau

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2018, 04:37:19 pm »
Um why is that so mia?

https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=467.msg3724#msg3724
Quote from: Jonne
Fast skins won't be removed for VIPs to pick, because of the simple reason it's part of the VIP package, people might have paid (in part) because they wanted to use fast skins, so we can't just take away a feature that was promised to them and that they've paid for. Even if it wasn't explicitly said so on the donation page, I've seen replies from VIPs that tell me they bought VIP (in part) to be able to use fast skins.

Same situation with the rest of VIP features.


I agree with you and I would do exactly what you are suggesting, but from replies in old suggestions, it's clear that Jonne is not willing to face an avalanche of critics, scam accusations and potential Paypal disputes for refund.

Personally, I would implement these suggestions, add an statement on the VIP information topic and accept any refund requests that come through Paypal (I don't think there would be many people interested in getting the money back and losing the VIP though). But of course, that's up to the owner.
Oh! I don't want to fight you, Jorah the Andal. What do I have to gain? If I win, I'm the shit who killed an old man. If I lose, I'm the shit who was killed by an old man.

~ Daario Naharis

Offline (1)[H]nZ88

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2018, 05:51:01 pm »
Increase Rifle dmg

There are so many possibilities to tackling this problem, but if Jonne is unwilling to nerf VIP features then buffing features that everyone has access is the logical alternative. +1 to better rifles.
My suggestion: Make VIP €5,00 or €10,00 a month.

This probably will not happen. It would decrease the amount of VIPs and therefore lessen the problem while still making sure the server gets revenue, or even more revenue than before. This will however not make the gap between VIPs and non-VIPs any smaller. And also, INB4 "People paid for permanent VIP, we can't remove their permanent VIP status, because that's what they paid for." And that is obvious, isn't it? After all, this is in the VIP Terms:
Quote
Once purchased, you stay VIP forever.

But you know what isn't in the VIP terms? "Once purchased, you retain access to all features that come with the VIP package." People paid for the status. Everyone who is saying they purchased VIP for sniper rifle or fast skins, tough shit, because that's not what you paid for. You paid for VIP and with it you got everything that comes with VIP.
If Jonne is planning on never making negative changes to VIP features then the game will forever stay unbalanced. As far as I'm aware, every VIP that has paid has gotten to taste the spoils and as such been rewarded for their payement.
cunt

Offline Menace

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Re: Make VIP features more fair
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2018, 06:20:35 pm »
Increase Rifle dmg

There are so many possibilities to tackling this problem, but if Jonne is unwilling to nerf VIP features then buffing features that everyone has access is the logical alternative. +1 to better rifles.
My suggestion: Make VIP €5,00 or €10,00 a month.

This probably will not happen. It would decrease the amount of VIPs and therefore lessen the problem while still making sure the server gets revenue, or even more revenue than before. This will however not make the gap between VIPs and non-VIPs any smaller. And also, INB4 "People paid for permanent VIP, we can't remove their permanent VIP status, because that's what they paid for." And that is obvious, isn't it? After all, this is in the VIP Terms:
Quote
Once purchased, you stay VIP forever.

But you know what isn't in the VIP terms? "Once purchased, you retain access to all features that come with the VIP package." People paid for the status. Everyone who is saying they purchased VIP for sniper rifle or fast skins, tough shit, because that's not what you paid for. You paid for VIP and with it you got everything that comes with VIP.
If Jonne is planning on never making negative changes to VIP features then the game will forever stay unbalanced. As far as I'm aware, every VIP that has paid has gotten to taste the spoils and as such been rewarded for their payement.

^^