Plan B
General => Suggestions => Added => Topic started by: Rage on May 15, 2020, 10:33:11 pm
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Hello i just wanna say remove that thing "you cannot surf " or i don't know why adding this ?
I suggest to remove this thanks bb :-*
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+1
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+1
I prefer to get punished, than not being able to play the game it is supposed to.
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Umm what, surfing on people was always a thing.
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+1
There are times when we get on enemy's vehicle and finish them off. We can't do that with this surf thing.
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+2 -1
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just remove it lol +1
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I agree with removing for terrorist class but not for civil class.
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I kinda understand your feelings, but I don't think that we should just abandon this idea. The recent forum events have clearly proven that it is better to exclude conflict situations rather than to keep solving them by involving admin actions, which might leave unnecessary dissatisfaction and discontent (Satan, popcornZ). The rule which says
You are not allowed to help the opposing team in any way.
seems to be as unclear as the infamous duty rule.
So I would rather like to adjust the new system properly. Here are the ideas I've been thinking of or heard from the other players:
- make the president an exception;
- disallow civilians to surf the cars driven by "good" or "bad" guys only if a civilian has dealt damage to the teammate of the driver of the car they are surfing, during their current life;
- set up a timer which would push a surfer after some amount of time, which would allow to damage the car/the driver, but make it hard to team up.
Also, please, keep in mind that helping the opposing team by other means than riding together is still punishable!
P.S. Let me explain another time. The civilians are allowed to team up with whoever they like. However, if a civilian is fighting with a "good" or "bad" guy, the teammates of the person who the civilian is fighting with, should at least not interfere or block this person.
Back in 2016 Jonne introduced the system that negates the damage dealt to the car if the driver of the car belongs to the same team as the shooter. This could cause situations where a civilian surfed the car of a "good" or "bad" guy while shooting the teammates of the driver. The teammates of the driver, in turn, couldn't shoot back if the civilian is far enough: due to a SAMP bug, it's often impossible to deal damage to a surfer of an occupied car with a sniper, and they can't damage the car either. It is obviously unfair, because the driver is not responsible for the actions of his fellow civilian surfer, but in the same time it turns out that the driver helps the civilian to attack his teammates. These situations are hard to track and awkward to punish for, as the civilian's actions are natural (civilians can attack anyone they wish), and the driver's actions are not necessarily ill intended. So it's better just to exclude such situations.
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This rule was added because some admins cannot be trusted to enforce the "rule" without abusing the vagueness of it.
80% of civilians jump on other classes' cars to kill them, 10% to hitch a ride from a friend while in the middle of nowhere, and 10% newbie backstabbers that shoot at anything that loses health.
+1, please remove this
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+100
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That's very nice of you, IceBreaker. Yet another time you prove my point.
80% of civilians jump on other classes' cars to kill them
10% newbie backstabbers that shoot at anything that loses health.
I don't know where did you get these numbers from... Anyway. What's the difference between these statements? The first one is neutral, while the second one consists of a pure contempt. Looks like the first one is applicable to your friendies who kill the right persons, and the second one to those who kill the wrong ones, like most nice (https://pastebin.com/ZNLLrUsS) and most polite (https://youtu.be/rDoYvMleO4o?t=234) Rubber Ducks.
This PTP 'culture', which discourages killing on a TDM server, is worth laughs and tears. Can you imagine such situation in CS? CoD? Turning a TDM server to an institute of noble maidens or to a battlefield of egos of whining kids who cannot deal with getting killed sometimes too.
10% to hitch a ride from a friend while in the middle of nowhere
Yeah. :) Friendship is magic. I know you are talking about civilians riding with the other classes, but let me refresh your memories, how it was on the old server where nobody cared: one (https://youtu.be/H0rjAC-K2Ak) two (https://docs.zoho.com/file/cxnoia38f5f83a65749bcbaf8a3353642acff) three (https://docs.zoho.com/file/0zblm74832ae98c9844c794d2a1d1e05a3052) four (https://docs.zoho.com/file/0zblmf4444f67a33d41ac88fdcee2670072f5) five (https://docs.zoho.com/file/9et0fe0218f48b5e14bcdacb87d5af878b90e).
Since there are still cases of the abuse of this kind, we should have come up with an effective way to prevent it. Also, I think that teaming up with a civilian who was attacking your teammates is basically the same as teaming up with the member of the opposing team. Yet I do not encourage to punish for this, merely excluding such situations is better in any case.
This rule was added because some admins cannot be trusted to enforce the "rule" without abusing the vagueness of it.
If you were right, IceBreaker, Mia would have been kicked out of the staff team at the speed of light. There's no need to build your conspiracy theories, Mia and I are as valuable admins for Jonne as Mive was, no more or no less.
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I like this update but it should be removed in the terrorist class when they roof in president/security cars because some players used to jump above the presi/security is car (that usually has 2000hp) just to kill them or to force them to leave it but now its more easy to be killed by driveby.
About the admin problems about this rule it will be more easy to punish a terrorist if he roofs on president/security's car and he's not doing any kind of damage.
Thats my opinion about this.
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... but let me refresh your memories, how it was on the old server where nobody cared: one (https://youtu.be/H0rjAC-K2Ak) two (https://docs.zoho.com/file/cxnoia38f5f83a65749bcbaf8a3353642acff) three (https://docs.zoho.com/file/0zblm74832ae98c9844c794d2a1d1e05a3052) four (https://docs.zoho.com/file/0zblmf4444f67a33d41ac88fdcee2670072f5) five (https://docs.zoho.com/file/9et0fe0218f48b5e14bcdacb87d5af878b90e).
Since there are still cases of the abuse of this kind, we should have come up with an effective way to prevent it. Also, I think that teaming up with a civilian who was attacking your teammates is basically the same as teaming up with the member of the opposing team. Yet I do not encourage to punish for this, merely excluding such situations is better in any case.
I can't see any civillian surfing with any other team on that videos. Only Terror and police surfing with cop or terror classes in those videos Altus. I'm sure they must had been punished for team blocking, helping teamkill there.
Can you explain me what did happen to sipirit of civilian class being renegade. It lost sipirit now. Civs were free to do everything, they were renegades who can help you and then they were able to kill you. You must accept that situation as it been for 15 years long. Then 2020 comes here, some problem happens and civilian class became a class like as any other usual.
Being civilian is not so interesting now. Well, "you just can't surf and team with any other class." But civs supposed to teamup with any class and any vehicles to surf.
What admins supposed to do?
They can punish if your teammate takes the civ in his car and comes to you with that civ, then that civ starts to kill you; so you can punish that teammate who caused team blocking with surfing with civ.
In the report of Popcornz which caused to enforce this new rule "no surfing":
[20:57:02] [VIP] [ThuG].Satan: is it allowed when i'm terro and i save a civilian from other terros ?
[20:57:19] [Staff] Mia: No
[20:57:21] [VIP] [RZ]Nada_: allowed allowed
[20:57:21] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ: civilians can do whatever they want
[20:57:53] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ: that doesnt give you the right to drop me
[20:58:06] [VIP] [ThuG].Satan: why cant i save a civilian from other terros ?
[20:58:22] [Staff] Altus_Demens: The same reason why you can't save a cop from the terrors if you are a terro, lol
[20:58:32] [Staff] Mia: Because that civilian can damage your team mates and your team mates can't damage him.
[20:58:35] [Staff] Mia: Not fair.
[20:58:48] [VIP] Rage_: BringBackMia
[20:59:03] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ: stop coming up with ways to avoid what you have done
[20:59:11] [VIP] Rage_: Remove Mia forever
[20:59:12] [VIP] [ThuG].Satan: i think other admins wont agree with u mia
[21:01:39] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ: civilians can do whatever they want, including teaming up with any team
[21:02:02] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ: suppose that I am a danger to your teammates, does that give you the right to drop me?
[21:02:20] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ: this applies no logic
[21:02:50] [VIP] KarBon_BiB: demotion inc
[21:02:50] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ: and by giving arguments, you prove yourself that you have dropped me
Admins supposed to punish the guy who caused teamblock. Not to /drop the civ and then kill him with admin power.
As for the actions, we've talked to Mia to clear this up, so this won't happen again. We've also advised admins to not handle cases they're involved in themselves, but rather let them be handled by another, neutral, admin
Like as Jonne said it up there.
And making new system for civilian class. Really useless effort.. Because of admins can't know what to do about those teamblockers, we lost sipirit of Civilian Class. RIP CIVS... That was what Icebreaker talking about admins.
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I strongly agree that opposing teams shouldn’t be able to team up in any shape or form, but doesn’t this also affect a player’s fighting style?
Police inside an infernus trying to drive-by kill Terrorist, will the Terrorist be able to jump on Police car and kill him? Or will the Terrorist be automatically dropped from the Popice car and be killed in the process? This is one simple scenario that most players go through.
This made things really complicated fighting-wise, it didn’t resolve much abuse-wise, it’s just a small matter imho, you’re exaggerating because clans and gangs do exist regardless of the game mode, and I think we should just revert back to the old system and if abuse occurs, a suitable punishment should be awaiting abusers
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Sure, COBRA, I don't mind to answer the questions related to this and taking part in civilized discussions. :)
Can you explain me what did happen to sipirit of civilian class being renegade. It lost sipirit now. Civs were free to do everything, they were renegades who can help you and then they were able to kill you.
I agree, and it's absolutely the same now. Civilians can do whatever they wish. Moreover, I myself was struggling (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=5964.msg52888#msg52888) to find a decent place for civilians in the gamemode. I like this class and I enjoy playing it.
Being civilian is not so interesting now. Well, "you just can't surf and team with any other class." But civs supposed to teamup with any class and any vehicles to surf.
First of all, as I said, civilians still can team up with anyone they wish. If they want to ride with someone else, they should be the driver, though.
Also, as I said, I find it unfair that a non-civilian can give a ride to a civilian who is hostile towards the teammates of a driver. For me, it's pretty much the same as teaming up with a member of the opposite class.
They can punish if your teammate takes the civ in his car and comes to you with that civ, then that civ starts to kill you; so you can punish that teammate who caused team blocking with surfing with civ.
It could be a solution, but, once again, it brings unnecessary dissatisfaction and resentments. The intentions of the driver, who is giving a ride to the civilian, are not always bad! They might just want to play along with their civilian friend, without knowing that the civilian is killing their teammates. That's what I would rather exclude the situations which require such punishments.
Nevertheless, I understand your unhappiness about it, that is why I suggested possible enhancements to the system:
- make the president an exception;
- disallow civilians to surf the cars driven by "good" or "bad" guys only if a civilian has dealt damage to the teammate of the driver of the car they are surfing, during their current life;
- set up a timer which would push a surfer after some amount of time, which would allow to damage the car/the driver, but make it hard to team up.
I just don't really want to get rid of it completely.
As for popcornZ' report, I don't think that I should comment it, because Jonne has already handled it. Although what Mia did was not a punishment. Nobody was punished. She just fixed the situation where a civilian was escaping the fight he was engaged in, the same way as we fix those who hide inside the textures. I agree that the way she did it is not perfect. However, we, admins, did not have a better one; now we don't even have to interfere, which should leave no space for any future situations of this kind.
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you wasted your time in watching my stream!!! im so happy.
also demens, that is passive aggression which is intolerable here, I'll get a warning for this message but it's worth it.
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The system should not have been implemented in the first place as it did not solve the Popcorn's report problem. Yes, I support removing it.
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This PTP 'culture', which discourages killing on a TDM server, is worth laughs and tears.
It seems like you just want everyone to play the way you play, which is not right. As long as no one is breaking the rules, let them play however they want to play. Let people have fun however they want to have fun.
And this rule is just stupid. Please remove it.
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I support removing it also.
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If the people who code can make it so that a civilian can be damaged by anyone/anything, anywhere, the problem will solve itself naturally, is that possible?
The beauty of the civ class is to pretend you a protecting the president and then backstab him when no one looks
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+1
Just remove this idiocy.It's a part of the game that one can jump onto the car.I don't really see any problems.
If I'm a civilian and want to help the presidential side,I cannot get onto their car now,and I'm basically useless in that position.
And the possible limit of surfing if you harm someone is bad,that should only apply to bullet dmg because desynced damaged that one receives from,say,a vehicle,can be attributed to someone nearby who has nothing to do with infliction.
This PTP 'culture', which discourages killing on a TDM server, is worth laughs and tears.
It seems like you just want everyone to play the way you play, which is not right. As long as no one is breaking the rules, let them play however they want to play. Let people have fun however they want to have fun.
And this rule is just stupid. Please remove it.
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I don't think it should be removed, but we need to make it a bit more permissive. It's a real problem when you only want to hop on the enemy's car to finish them. Maybe a time limit would be enough to make this possible. For example, removing the surfer only after 5 seconds. That should be more than enough time to finish an enemy in most situations.
This restriction was implemented to stop terrorists from giving rides to cops and vice-versa. Also, some civilians were taking advantage of their friends' team protection, using it as a Joker card to escape from dangerous situations. In extreme cases, I've even witnessed vice-presidents chasing presidents with sniping civilians on top of their cars.
This kind of behavior is never fair for the other side. How is security supposed to stop vice-president's car packed with hostile civilians trying to kill the president? Security can't damage the car, and they can't damage civilians if the distance is long enough so they are only in sniper range (players surfing an occupied vehicle can't be damaged with snipers).
Of course, we could just remove the system and let the staff punish drivers who engage in this kind of anti-team play. But it's not going to be nearly as effective, as we are only going to catch a small percentage of all team block cases, and it's an open door for disputes, people who think the punishment is too severe, and endless forum drama.
It's not a secret that Jonne's strategy is to make everything as automated as possible, so there's almost nothing left to an admin's subjective decisions. Prevention of spawn-kill is almost fully automated, same with team-shooting or the "no vice and presi in the same car" rule. We should just see this as another step in the process to automate rule enforcement.
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If the rule is going to stay, can you make an exception for iBen Bus Tours Inc?
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I don't think it should be removed, but we need to make it a bit more permissive. It's a real problem when you only want to hop on the enemy's car to finish them. Maybe a time limit would be enough to make this possible. For example, removing the surfer only after 5 seconds. That should be more than enough time to finish an enemy in most situations.
This restriction was implemented to stop terrorists from giving rides to cops and vice-versa. Also, some civilians were taking advantage of their friends' team protection, using it as a Joker card to escape from dangerous situations. In extreme cases, I've even witnessed vice-presidents chasing presidents with sniping civilians on top of their cars.
This kind of behavior is never fair for the other side. How is security supposed to stop vice-president's car packed with hostile civilians trying to kill the president? Security can't damage the car, and they can't damage civilians if the distance is long enough so they are only in sniper range (players surfing an occupied vehicle can't be damaged with snipers).
Of course, we could just remove the system and let the staff punish drivers who engage in this kind of anti-team play. But it's not going to be nearly as effective, as we are only going to catch a small percentage of all team block cases, and it's an open door for disputes, people who think the punishment is too severe, and endless forum drama.
It's not a secret that Jonne's strategy is to make everything as automated as possible, so there's almost nothing left to an admin's subjective decisions. Prevention of spawn-kill is almost fully automated, same with team-shooting or the "no vice and presi in the same car" rule. We should just see this as another step in the process to automate rule enforcement.
Couldn’t have been said any better, I was 50/50 on this, you’re actually right. If a 5 seconds timer is implemented this would be a great solution. 👍🏻
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If the rule is going to stay, can you make an exception for iBen Bus Tours Inc?
It's not a new rule, it has existed for almost a year.
• No teamshooting or spawnkilling
- You are not allowed to help the opposing team in any way.
The only change is that now it's automatically enforced. Nothing else.
As far as I know, you do your Bus Tours as a civilian. Everybody can surf vehicles driven by civilians, so there should be no problems with that.
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If the rule is going to stay, can you make an exception for iBen Bus Tours Inc?
It's not a new rule, it has existed for almost a year.
• No teamshooting or spawnkilling
- You are not allowed to help the opposing team in any way.
The only change is that now it's automatically enforced. Nothing else.
As far as I know, you do your Bus Tours as a civilian. Everybody can surf vehicles driven by civilians, so there should be no problems with that.
The fact is Civilian used to be friendly & enemy for each class even in the civilian class, they can be friend or enemy. So that rule was not for civilians before the issue you had with some civ weeks ago. That rule was for Terrs and cops..
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This restriction was implemented to stop terrorists from giving rides to cops and vice-versa. Also, some civilians were taking advantage of their friends' team protection, using it as a Joker card to escape from dangerous situations. In extreme cases, I've even witnessed vice-presidents chasing presidents with sniping civilians on top of their cars.
This kind of behavior is never fair for the other side. How is security supposed to stop vice-president's car packed with hostile civilians trying to kill the president? Security can't damage the car, and they can't damage civilians if the distance is long enough so they are only in sniper range (players surfing an occupied vehicle can't be damaged with snipers).
Of course, we could just remove the system and let the staff punish drivers who engage in this kind of anti-team play. But it's not going to be nearly as effective, as we are only going to catch a small percentage of all team block cases, and it's an open door for disputes, people who think the punishment is too severe, and endless forum drama.
It's not a secret that Jonne's strategy is to make everything as automated as possible, so there's almost nothing left to an admin's subjective decisions. Prevention of spawn-kill is almost fully automated, same with team-shooting or the "no vice and presi in the same car" rule. We should just see this as another step in the process to automate rule enforcement.
i wonder what you mean by this ''fair'' in a team death match , 1 terrorist vs 2 cops is unfaire too,a president with 2 secs vs 5 terrorists is unfair too, we hadn't any problems for civilians class for more then 10 years .
the only ''problem'' that was in the past that we coudn't kill a civilian when he get in other class's car ,and it has been solved before .
No need for any of this,you are just making things more complicated,let civilians team up with any class just solve the bug that we can't shoot them in same team mate's car .and punish team class's carparking or ramming .
What could a civil do when he get in another car's team ? run ? is this unfair ?
what you want guys is 1vs 1 wich is impossible in a TDM.
The fact is Civilian used to be friendly & enemy for each class even in the civilian class, they can be friend or enemy. So that rule was not for civilians before the issue you had with some civ weeks ago. That rule was for Terrs and cops..
this is it, she is just searching for excuse to justify her abuse against popcorn's case wich she had to get punished for it .
https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=2560.msg22569#msg22569
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Makes me laugh, how much we have already moved away from the original gamemode that everyone was happy with when this server first launched.
This needs to be removed.
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This restriction was implemented to stop terrorists from giving rides to cops and vice-versa. Also, some civilians were taking advantage of their friends' team protection, using it as a Joker card to escape from dangerous situations. In extreme cases, I've even witnessed vice-presidents chasing presidents with sniping civilians on top of their cars.
This kind of behavior is never fair for the other side. How is security supposed to stop vice-president's car packed with hostile civilians trying to kill the president? Security can't damage the car, and they can't damage civilians if the distance is long enough so they are only in sniper range (players surfing an occupied vehicle can't be damaged with snipers).
Of course, we could just remove the system and let the staff punish drivers who engage in this kind of anti-team play. But it's not going to be nearly as effective, as we are only going to catch a small percentage of all team block cases, and it's an open door for disputes, people who think the punishment is too severe, and endless forum drama.
It's not a secret that Jonne's strategy is to make everything as automated as possible, so there's almost nothing left to an admin's subjective decisions. Prevention of spawn-kill is almost fully automated, same with team-shooting or the "no vice and presi in the same car" rule. We should just see this as another step in the process to automate rule enforcement.
i wonder what you mean by this ''fair'' in a team death match , 1 terrorist vs 2 cops is unfaire too,a president with 2 secs vs 5 terrorists is unfair too, we hadn't any problems for civilians class for more then 10 years .
the only ''problem'' that was in the past that we coudn't kill a civilian when he get in other class's car ,and it has been solved before .
No need for any of this,you are just making things more complicated,let civilians team up with any class just solve the bug that we can't shoot them in same team mate's car .and punish team class's carparking or ramming .
What could a civil do when he get in another car's team ? run ? is this unfair ?
what you want guys is 1vs 1 wich is impossible in a TDM.
The fact is Civilian used to be friendly & enemy for each class even in the civilian class, they can be friend or enemy. So that rule was not for civilians before the issue you had with some civ weeks ago. That rule was for Terrs and cops..
this is it, she is just searching for excuse to justify her abuse against popcorn's case wich she had to get punished for it .
https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=2560.msg22569#msg22569
Agreed.This doesn't concern the civilians.If there are teamkillers,just disable the terrorists from climbing the cop cars and the opposite,and that's about it.Why disable civilian surfing when it could be a way to protect or kill the president?
The issue isn't about the ability to surf a car and make use of it to kill someone,if I understand well,but rather enemy teams surfing together.
If a vice surfs with civilians,then simply disable that protection for their vehicle and that's it.
So it wasn't a bug or lag that I couldn't hit people on vehicles with sniper?Hmm okay.
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Makes me laugh, how much we have already moved away from the original gamemode that everyone was happy with when this server first launched.
This needs to be removed.
Couldnt have said it better.
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Although what Mia did was not a punishment. Nobody was punished. She just fixed the situation where a civilian was escaping the fight he was engaged in, the same way as we fix those who hide inside the textures. I agree that the way she did it is not perfect.
First of all civilians were never a point of concern as "skilled" guys like you could kill them easily even if surfing on top of vehicle.
A new rule was created by Mia & she decided to drop a guy & kill him {With help of admin powers after dropping} And you say that she "Fixed" the situation.I Don't see difference between Tenshi & Mia here .
Whatever i wont agree with you or vice-versa .
Anti teamshooting script was added because of random newbies who could not play well, same way a random script is added on server after an admin screwed up his/her powers.
why should we not surf on vehicles .. & most cases when someone is about to run us over , we hop on a vehicle and finish them. you guys are taking the gaming spirit out of this game sadly.
+1
plz remove this thing & Plz Make a rule not to punish for surfing . if you are driving alone chasing surfers , then back off and choose a way to remove the surfers {Rustlers etc} instead of using admin powers or scripts on us..
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Another crucial surfing point is that civilians could jump on a terror/cop's vehicle to avoid being driveby'd to death and it was a pretty awesome mechanic where the terror would have to get out and face you otherwise he dies, sadly now it doesn't exist to the advantage of terrors/cops/secs. + you could troll the cop/terror by sitting in his car, he would eventually kill you but still
We have everyone agreeing but 2 admins with conflict of interest and we cannot do anything, do you see problem with this, Jonne?
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Another crucial surfing point is that civilians could jump on a terror/cop's vehicle to avoid being driveby'd to death and it was a pretty awesome mechanic where the terror would have to get out and face you otherwise he dies, sadly now it doesn't exist to the advantage of terrors/cops/secs. + you could troll the cop/terror by sitting in his car, he would eventually kill you but still
We have everyone agreeing but 2 admins with conflict of interest and we cannot do anything, do you see problem with this, Jonne?
That's why it's a good idea to add a 5-second delay as I said before, so civilians and opposite team members aren't defenceless against drive-by.
Lol. My opinion is a conflict of interest? So what's your opinion? 100% altruism, kindness, solidarity and some sort of divine pureness?
My only interest is not getting hunted by civilians I can't kill because they are on my team mate's car. Or watching civilians magically escape using my team mate's car like it was a Get-out-of-jail card. I don't want anyone else to experience the same either. I understand that you don't share this interest, since you have unofficial peace agreements with almost every player that engages in this tactic.
If my interest was to take advantage of this rule to abuse commands, I would be the biggest supporter of this suggestion. Keep in mind that this script made admins absolutely irrelevant when it comes to enforcing this rule. We no longer decide what the punishment is. No more disagreements, no more forum drama.
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That's why it's a good idea to add a 5-second delay as I said before, so civilians and opposite team members aren't defenceless against drive-by.
3 deagle shots + 2 seconds, don't know how much that is, but that's a fine solution
My only interest is not getting hunted by civilians I can't kill because they are on my team mate's car.
Why can't you kill? Why does that even exist? Civilians should be able to be killed by anything and anywhere, can we add that in script as a rule?
Or watching civilians magically escape using my team mate's car like it was a Get-out-of-jail card. I don't want anyone else to experience the same either. I understand that you don't share this interest, since you have unofficial peace agreements with almost every player that engages in this tactic.
Why is it the civilian's fault and not your teammate that aided him in it. Why isn't your teammate punished for collaborating with the enemy? But wait, are civilians enemies? They might be in "team" with the terror, how is a script going to judge that? The civ is just using the tools at his disposal to survive and then punished for trying instead of the terror who made it possible.
Shit happens when something as loose as the civ class which is only a "class" or a "team" in script terms is being messed with
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Why make a delay?
Is there a way to count how many seconds has a terrorist been on a cop car,or vice-versa?
If we establish how many is enough for a kill,there's no need to "drop" anything.
We can simply see if they've been on the car for that long and know they've been in a fight,unless proven otherwise.
But if they've been on it longer,and haven't killed the enemy,we (I mean the admins/mods) can deem that as teamwork and jail them or something.
But the civilians must be excluded,they're a specific group and cannot be put under the same standards.
Like he said,they should be vulnerable to anything,so the problem would be fixed with it.No protection of any kind.
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Another crucial surfing point is that civilians could jump on a terror/cop's vehicle to avoid being driveby'd to death and it was a pretty awesome mechanic where the terror would have to get out and face you otherwise he dies, sadly now it doesn't exist to the advantage of terrors/cops/secs. + you could troll the cop/terror by sitting in his car, he would eventually kill you but still
We have everyone agreeing but 2 admins with conflict of interest and we cannot do anything, do you see problem with this, Jonne?
Exactly, you said so true and wild!
Well we are not able to teamup with civ anymore as a team player. Civilians are alone now, they can't surf on presidents plane to cover him, they can't teamup with terror to kill president, they can't teamup with cop to kill terrorists, they can't surf on any vehicle to kill driver.
PTP Gamemode's first break here. Changing the civilian class motto with surfing. It is not "just surfing". It is more than surfing which makes more tactics for civilians.
That rules were for the non-civ class since at the beginning. That rule was for the TEAMS which was all about TEAM BLOCKING. But a few days ago, Mia had problem with civ class and it leads to changing whole civ class motto and breaking it's sipirit.
What admins & mods doing for servers? They should be able to punish teamblockers like as we (Khali, Icebreaker, Matt, etc) did for more than 5 years long in our admin duty period. Mia being admin not even for a month, killing civilian with the admin force /drop, then hides behind the "teamblocking" rule which is not for civilians at all. And this new system totally breaks down civilian class system...
We all agreed to remove that new system "surf thing" already, Jonne. Let the staff do work instead of staff playing game when report comes. They must handle it, they choosen to staff position for this. Staff here for to enforce rules, not forcing rules by their own pleasure. We don't need useless surf thing which damages PTP gamemode system.
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+1 for remove this
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So, the system is obviously too restrictive. Now, in my opinion, having a civ team up with terros or cops, and attacking people on that team shouldn't be allowed, for 2 reasons. Let's take the scenario where a civ is teaming up with a terro, and attacking another terro.
1. The civ is on an invulnarable car, so that already makes it harder to kill him.
2. There's the sniper bug. For those that are unaware, you can't snipe people that are surfing a vehicle. It's a SAMP bug that's been around a long time, but went unnoticeable for the most part. I think the main reason nobody really noticed it, is because we didn't have hitsounds and indicators in the past, so we'd never know if we hit someone with a sniper or not. So, from far enough away, the civ would be able to snipe the terro, with the terro not being able to do anything back (he can't damage the car, and he can't damage the player who's sniping him).
So, for these 2 reasons, we thought this would be unfair and implemented the system.
Now, we know the system is too harsh currently, so here's what I'm proposing: we remove all restrictions, except in the following cases:
- A civ surfing on a terro car, and attacking another terro (that is not in or on the same car) -> Your bullets will be disabled, so you can't do any damage
- A cop surfing on a terro car, and attacking another terro (that is not in or on the same car) -> Your bullets will be disabled, so you can't do any damage, and you'll be removed from the vehicle
- A civ surfing on a cop/SWAT car, and attacking another person of that team (Pres/Vice/Sec/Cop/Swat, that is not in or on the same car) -> Your bullets will be disabled, so you can't do any damage
- A terro surfing on a cop/SWAT car, and attacking another person of that team (Pres/Vice/Sec/Cop/Swat, that is not in or on the same car) -> Your bullets will be disabled, so you can't do any damage, and you'll be removed from the vehicle
So, this would mean civs can ride with anyone, just that in some cases their bullets would be disabled. There wouldn't be any restrictions for the Pres/Sec class (everyone will be able to ride their car), as those cases are a lot rarer.
I think this should cover most of obvious cases which can be abused. As for some smaller, more specific cases that weren't addressed with this:
- If a team player is driving around with someone from the opposite team (non-civs), the person on top will be warned and pushed at first. Further incidents will be punished with a jail. We won't go further than a 10 min jail for this.
- For a civ riding on top of a team player (cop, terro, ...), no action will be taken (except the disabling bullets described above when he attacks a teammate of the person he's surfing on on).
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Seems like a good and fair solution
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...
2. There's the sniper bug. For those that are unaware, you can't snipe people that are surfing a vehicle. It's a SAMP bug that's been around a long time, but went unnoticeable for the most part. I think the main reason nobody really noticed it, is because we didn't have hitsounds and indicators in the past, so we'd never know if we hit someone with a sniper or not. So, from far enough away, the civ would be able to snipe the terro, with the terro not being able to do anything back (he can't damage the car, and he can't damage the player who's sniping him).
Good point, but this would be possible for SAMP Addon users
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Thanks for thinking this through and coming up with a better solution. Much better than just disabling surfing.
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Now I think this is fair enough and yeah, SAMP Addon users CAN damage the ones on top of the vehicle. I say that this is even better now I think. :P
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I guess this rule only applies for VIPS and regular players...Staff members allowed to do it based on what I am seeing
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- For a civ riding on top of a team player (cop, terro, ...), no action will be taken (except the disabling bullets described above when he attacks a teammate of the person he's surfing on on).
I find this extremely unfair as this basically makes it legal to team up with civilians against your own class. It has to fall under the no helping the enemy rule or we should introduce the surfing time for civilians, but in no way we can leave it as is now.
I had to deviate from my principle and play this way with Mia today in order to show how abusive it is; a 20 minutes game has already resulted in a report (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=6174.0). I completely agree with Madman, but at the moment it is allowed. Let's change it, voice your opinions, please.
Nota bene! Mia did not shoot Madman while staying on my car, she was simply scoping. Also, her bullets wouldn't have dealt any damage anyway (look at Jonne's post above).
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- For a civ riding on top of a team player (cop, terro, ...), no action will be taken (except the disabling bullets described above when he attacks a teammate of the person he's surfing on on).
I find this extremely unfair as this basically makes it legal to team up with civilians against your own class. It has to fall under the no helping the enemy rule or we should introduce the surfing time for civilians, but in no way we can leave it as is now.
I had to deviate from my principle and play this way with Mia today in order to show how abusive it is; a 20 minutes game has already resulted in a report (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=6174.0). I completely agree with Madman, but at the moment it is allowed. Let's change it, voice your opinions, please.
Nota bene! Mia did not shoot Madman while staying on my car, she was simply scoping. Also, her bullets wouldn't have dealt any damage anyway (look at Jonne's post above).
That was a smart move from you to piss off every player in the server to change there opinion,but you'll just loose players .
the current systeme is good.
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- For a civ riding on top of a team player (cop, terro, ...), no action will be taken (except the disabling bullets described above when he attacks a teammate of the person he's surfing on on).
I find this extremely unfair as this basically makes it legal to team up with civilians against your own class. It has to fall under the no helping the enemy rule or we should introduce the surfing time for civilians, but in no way we can leave it as is now.
I had to deviate from my principle and play this way with Mia today in order to show how abusive it is; a 20 minutes game has already resulted in a report (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=6174.0). I completely agree with Madman, but at the moment it is allowed. Let's change it, voice your opinions, please.
Nota bene! Mia did not shoot Madman while staying on my car, she was simply scoping. Also, her bullets wouldn't have dealt any damage anyway (look at Jonne's post above).
Bruv you tried so hard to break the rule, even as an admin but you still didn't break any rules ;)
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as you clearly see, my teammate helps the opponent to escape death and cover him, which is kinda annoying because I want to kill the civilian,and I cant damage the vehicule he's surfing on, so I want to suggest, since you brought out this idea, to disable surfing on the opponent team's vehicules for civilians
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That was a smart move from you to piss off every player in the server to change there opinion,but you'll just loose players .
the current systeme is good.
If the current system is good, how can I "piss off" someone by strictly following it? We have a contradiction here, but the "pissing off" part is correct. This means that the system is not even nearly good.
Bruv you tried so hard to break the rule, even as an admin but you still didn't break any rules ;)
You got it all wrong, Ice. I did not try to break the rule. In turn, Mia and I were playing in full accordance with the rules. Our point was to show that the current system is inacceptable, as it leads to the collisions of this kind. So, once again, I agree with Madman's, Ahmed's and Tochy's dissatisfaction and I fully understand it. I wish this won't be ignored.
so I want to suggest, since you brought out this idea, to disable surfing on the opponent team's vehicules for civilians
You see, Tochy, the new system was introduced because people were unhappy about the previous one, which was working exactly as you described.
I think that we need some third option. Like, a rule which the admins would be able to enforce and punish for breaking.
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I guess this rule only applies for VIPS and regular players...Staff members allowed to do it based on what I am seeing
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New script solution is definitely better because it makes the case too obvious that some player is helping a player from enemy class (as seen in the altus/mia video). Disabling surfing has many downsides , as discussed previously , and is no way a solution to this.
It is clear cut that altus was driving mia around when he shouldn't be, easy for admins to realise and take action. This new script solution makes it easy for admins to enforce the "Don't help enemy team against yours" rule. There's definitely admin involvement needed but atleast there will be no gray areas.
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Nvm.
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Remove the system completely.
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Remove the system completely.
^
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Remove the system completely.
Yea, revert it back. And maybe keep this event as a precedent and if something similar to this happens again, the staff can deal with it properly. I am so confused about what it allowed and not allowed now. :v
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Remove the system completely.
+1
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Remove the system completely.
+1
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Remove the system completely.
☝🏻
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Remove the system completely.
+1, maybe admins should stop abusing
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Yes remove it... Why is it even there in the first place?
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Remove the system completely.
+1, maybe admins should stop abusing
+1, And then at least apologize or admit for mishandling the situation if it happens.
Decide on what is termed as "teaming up with enemies" and then let community know so they can follow.
From what I can see , script solutions(both) are not being liked by the majority.
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Remove the system completely.
+1, maybe admins should stop abusing
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Okay, we've been discussing this, what would be the best way to make a rule so that, the situation that Popcornz was in wouldn't be punished for, but the situation Altus and Mia are creating, would be punished for. An automated system for this would be way to complicated, so I think the best way to go here would be a rule:
- If a civilian is actively engaged in a fight with a cop/terro, then subsequently escapes the fight with a teammate (of the person he's in a fight with), he'll be punished. With "actively engaged", we mean that the civ is involved in the fight, and is attacking and damaging the cop/terro as well.
The punishments will be issued through a warning system (which admins and mods can issue), which keeps track of your warning level, and will punish based on that:
- First warning: Just the warning message (to make people aware of the rule and the consequences, this will show up in all other warnings as well)
- 2nd warning: 2 min jail
- 3rd warning: 5 min jail
- 4th and all next warnings: 10 min jail
This warning system will also work for the rule I explained in my previous post:
- If a team player is driving around with someone from the opposite team (non-civs), the person on top will be warned and pushed at first. Further incidents will be punished with a jail. We won't go further than a 10 min jail for this.
Now, I'd see this as an addition to the system, I don't think the system should have to go completely as it can still prevent blatant abuse of it (like cops/terros teaming up and attacking teammates), without needing an admin around for it (and I'm talking about the system we currently have, explained in this post: https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=6150.msg54663#msg54663, not the original system).
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How about we get the ability,as cops,to /arrest [number] a terrorist and they accept by /arrest themselves,and drive with the cop,and end up in jail inside the cop spawn? ;D ;D ;D
Then the passenger driving with the opposite class would be allowed xD jk
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Good job, much appreciated! However,
so that, the situation that Popcornz was in wouldn't be punished for
why? I think that warnings or a small jail time would work well in this situation. If you remain it completely allowed, civilians will be the only class who can leave a fight they are engaged in (even if they don't shoot back; you are engaged in a fight even if you remain passive when someone attacks you) by means of abusing the game mechanics. I don't see a single reason to give this unique privilege to civilians, particularly because "civilian attacking good guys and civilian attacking bad guys" are just imaginary concepts which have nothing to do with the rules.
If anybody agrees, don't remain silent, please.
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Civilians are not team players and can choose to side with anyone they want. They can damage anyone and be damaged by anyone.
^ That's what the idea of civilian class has always been. Now that the civ can't damage certain team players while surfing, I think it is fair enough that they get this "privelege" of choosing not to engage with those team players and escape. It is a fair trade.
With the new system, a civ is no longer a threat and can't use your teammate's vehicle as cover while damaging you .
So it always has to be the team player that is obsessed with killing the civilian, and if you are one of those, you gotta find other way around.
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Civilians are not team players and can choose to side with anyone they want. They can damage anyone and be damaged by anyone.
^ That's what the idea of civilian class has always been. Now that the civ can't damage certain team players while surfing, I think it is fair enough that they get this "privelege" of choosing not to engage with those team players and escape. It is a fair trade.
With the new system, a civ is no longer a threat and can't use your teammate's vehicle as cover while damaging you .
So it always has to be the team player that is obsessed with killing the civilian, and if you are one of those, you gotta find other way around.
Well said, that's the point of civilians which Altus still didn't get yet.
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Does no one care about how OP jumping on someone's car and shooting them through the roof is? Everyone here is talking about how it would be terrible if we can't do that, but I think it's ridiculous. There is no good way to counter it, particularly since it's hard to even passenger DB someone on the roof. The person doing it doesn't even have to be very good to pull it off. It's a great example of how the GM is hostile to driving at the moment. I think it shouldn't give damage to the driver/passengers, only the car.
Civilians are not team players and can choose to side with anyone they want. They can damage anyone and be damaged by anyone.
I think that's kind of the point though, they can't be damaged by anyone on top of a teammate's car. If I'm alone on an NRG and a civilian on top of a teammate's car is shooting at me, there isn't anything I can do with drivebying to stop it. There also isn't anything the driver can do about it, if they even notice, so they get smeared by the person on top. Not to mention that it only takes one bullet to shoot out a tire (and I have been fucked as President by this multiple times, often a civilian on top of their clanmate's car).
I think a lot of this wouldn't be as big of an issue if civilians weren't allowed to use snipers-- it lets them do much more damage in situations like this. I also think intent is important here-- a terrorist might be on a car to cheat, or they may be jumping on an opponent's car as a strategy. Does the opponent stay near their teammates with someone hostile to them on their roof? If so, they're equally culpable.
With the new system, a civ is no longer a threat and can't use your teammate's vehicle as cover while damaging you
This gamemode is not and never has been about civilians. It's about protecting or attacking the President, not keeping civilians, who have the benefit of being able to attack anyone, competitive.
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Does no one care about how OP jumping on someone's car and shooting them through the roof is? Everyone here is talking about how it would be terrible if we can't do that, but I think it's ridiculous. There is no good way to counter it, particularly since it's hard to even passenger DB someone on the roof. The person doing it doesn't even have to be very good to pull it off. It's a great example of how the GM is hostile to driving at the moment. I think it shouldn't give damage to the driver/passengers, only the car.
I think that's part of Gta, isn't it? People being shot at while they are swimming is OP, people being chainsawed when they enter/exit vehicle is OP. You can't remove/tweak all of them as per what each player wants, can you?
Disabling surfing was NOT a solution to all this civ thingy, and I don't see any good reason to discuss about this 'shooting players through car roof' here. Just my thought^
Civilians are not team players and can choose to side with anyone they want. They can damage anyone and be damaged by anyone.
I think that's kind of the point though, they can't be damaged by anyone on top of a teammate's car. If I'm alone on an NRG and a civilian on top of a teammate's car is shooting at me, there isn't anything I can do with drivebying to stop it. There also isn't anything the driver can do about it, if they even notice, so they get smeared by the person on top. Not to mention that it only takes one bullet to shoot out a tire (and I have been fucked as President by this multiple times, often a civilian on top of their clanmate's car).
I guess you haven't read Jonnes's replies(?) .
https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=6150.msg54663#msg54663
A civ surfing on top of terro driven vehicle will have his bullets disabled against other terrorists, similar for surfing over cops/swat driven vehicle. Also, you won't be able to damage that civ over your teammate's vehicle as well. That's the fair trade I was talking about. If a civ is not allowed to damage the team player, that person shouldn't be allowed to damage the civ as well, fair right?
And Altus was suggesting against this, proposing that the teamplayer should be able to kill the civ anyway even if the civ doesn't engage. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It is fair that the civ gets this privelege of staying passive and be friendly. Ignore the civ and get going, or try to bring the civ off your teammate's car if you want him dead.
In short, civilian is now free to choose whether he wants to stay friendly or not. If he engages, and surfs on your teammate's car to escape, then that's punishable.
So no, you won't get smeared by the civ on top of your teammate's vehicle(bullets disabled). BUT civ can surely kill you from top of your vehicle though. So if you want your teammates to help you fight that civ on top of your vehicle, you get out of vehicle and let the civ be shot at.
With the new system, a civ is no longer a threat and can't use your teammate's vehicle as cover while damaging you
This gamemode is not and never has been about civilians. It's about protecting or attacking the President, not keeping civilians, who have the benefit of being able to attack anyone, competitive.
I didn't meant to imply that this gamemode revolves around civilians. I only made a point about what civilian class is about i.e damage anyone, be damaged by anyone.
And the 'benefit' is compromised now, fairly, because civ can't damage certain people in certain case now, and those people can't damage either. Fair enough imo.
I think you missed the whole point of why this surf ban was implemented, it was NOT to make civilians competitive! It was the opposite, it was implemented to stop civilians from damaging teamplayers while surfing/riding vehicle of their team member, which was terrible.
"With this new system, a civ surfing on your teammate's car is no longer a threat unless you obsessively try to lure him into a fight on ground"