Fuerza cataluņa

[Miau]

This independence isn't only for economic reasons.

No one said so, neither did I.

Catalonia has its own culture, different to spanish.

You talk about Spanish culture like there was a single standard Spanish culture. Traditions, and sometimes even languages, vary a lot from one region to another. It happens in almost every country, and especially in Europe. The point that makes Spain stand out is that, since democracy was established, the government has constantly supported those differences and languages, rather than hide them or even ban them. Just a quick example: France doesn't even recognize languages such as Occitan or Euskera as official, even though they are widely spoken in some regions this country. In Spain, Catalan is not only official, but you can also get a fine for writing your business sign only in Spanish and not in Catalan. That's quite shocking when compared to France, huh?

Laws are adapted to spanish/castilian people, but forgot there is other political subjects with different ideology and needs.

Who forgot what? As far as I know, those people with 'different ideology and needs' also participate in the elections and also get seats in the Parliament. I suppose you refer to nationalism, so let's have a look to how those forgotten people are represented:

• ERC: 9 seats
• EAJ-PNV: 5 seats
• PDeCat: 4 seats
• EH Bildu: 2 seats

And I haven't bothered including Canarian and Valencian nationalists, but the lists continues.

What is more, you aren't only as represented as I am, you're way more represented. To get a parliament seat are needed 97,617 votes from people like me. To get a parliament seat for a nationalist are needed 57,243 votes (for PNV, as an example). So basically my vote has less power of changing laws, adapting them to our needs, than a vote from a Catalonian nationalist.

I don't know style, you have a very interesting concept of what being forgotten is like. I think you just want those 13 Catalonian nationalists to be able to change laws even though the other 337 members of the parliament don't want to.

[style!]

You talk about Spanish culture like there was a single standard Spanish culture. Traditions, and sometimes even languages, vary a lot from one region to another. It happens in almost every country, and especially in Europe. The point that makes Spain stand out is that, since democracy was established, the government has constantly supported those differences and languages, rather than hide them or even ban them. Just a quick example: France doesn't even recognize languages such as Occitan or Euskera as official, even though they are widely spoken in some regions this country. In Spain, Catalan is not only official, but you can also get a fine for writing your business sign only in Spanish and not in Catalan. That's quite shocking when compared to France, huh?

Oh, I see. Since France is worse, I must be happy with Spain. Anyways, "the government has constantly supported those differences and languages" is a lie.

What is more, you aren't only as represented as I am, you're way more represented. To get a parliament seat are needed 97,617 votes from people like me. To get a parliament seat for a nationalist are needed 57,243 votes (for PNV, as an example). So basically my vote has less power of changing laws, adapting them to our needs, than a vote from a Catalonian nationalist.

Why did you use PNV example instead of EH Bildu? Or (from spanish side) Ciudadanos instead of PP? That's not playing fair. Did you see ever this image from same article? The difference for nationalism parties are 2 seats, what means less than 0,6% of all seats.

I think you just want those 13 Catalonian nationalists to be able to change laws even though the other 337 members of the parliament don't want to.

No, all I want is catalans (nationalists and not nationalists) to be able to make his own laws (and I'm not talking about independence from spain) since they have different needs.

[Miau]

Oh, I see. Since France is worse, I must be happy with Spain. Anyways, "the government has constantly supported those differences and languages" is a lie.

My intention wasn't to show that worse places exist, but to highlight that even in fully democratic and widely considered modern countries, like France, the linguistic or cultural policies aren't as open to diversity as they are in Spain. This is why I have serious problems to understand why anyone in Catalonia or in the Basque Country would feel oppressed by Spain. In which way does that oppression work? Have Basque or Catalan been banned from schools or universities? It's the opposite, there are more hours taught in Catalan than in Spanish. Have they ever been prevented from writing legal documents in their language? No, legal documents are totally valid whether in Spanish or in any co-official language. Have they ever been prevented from choosing their own leaders, even though they wanted to literally destroy Spain? Never, that's why Puigdemont became the president, huh?

I really have trouble finding the oppression. It's way more easy to understand left-wing movements, such as abertzales or CUP party. At least they reject Spain because they don't want to live in a capitalist country in a capitalist Europe... it makes way more sense than who calls himself independentist just to gain a freedom that nobody denied.

Why did you use PNV example instead of EH Bildu? Or (from spanish side) Ciudadanos instead of PP? That's not playing fair. Did you see ever this image from same article? The difference for nationalism parties are 2 seats, what means less than 0,6% of all seats.

I used those examples because they are the extreme evidence that you aren't only not forgotten, but also treated better than other national political forces, such as Ciudadanos.

No, all I want is catalans (nationalists and not nationalists) to be able to make his own laws (and I'm not talking about independence from spain) since they have different needs.

They already make their own laws, that's why autonomical parliaments exist. But I think you're referring to total independence and sovereignty, huh? Granting sovereignty to an autonomous community would be against the Constitution and that community very own Estatute. Could Mr. Rajoy grant sovereignty ignoring the Constutitution? No, he couldn't even in the unlikely event he wanted to. What is the solution then? Modify the Constitution. It can be done and it is perfectly legal. Right now only the 69 members from Podemos and the nationalists parties, out of 350, support a referendum being held. I think it's obvious that more support is needed to change the law and have a referendum and eventually independence, huh?

[Sebastian]

only me who has notice 
nice disscusion.

[YoMama]

I really have trouble finding the oppression.

Is the Spanish government's reaction to the whole thing not at least vaguely oppressive? I don't know much about the cultural nuances of the situation, but it seems like more of the world should outraged, if they weren't afraid of their own secessionist movements popping up.

Territory does not belong to people, but to the country. That is a way to avoid conflicts.

Last I checked, that hasn't worked out well either.

[LPCOLTER]

I fear FCB will leave laliga soon.

[style!]

This is why I have serious problems to understand why anyone in Catalonia or in the Basque Country would feel oppressed by Spain.

Just open your eyes. Do you hear about Franco? GAL? ZEN? You want people to forget more than 80 years oppressed, even killed, because you just started to theard them more or less equally during last... 15? years. Anyways, in example, not every subjects can be studied in Basque at our universities and Basque (Lingua Navarrorum) ain't co-official language in certain parts of Navarre. Also, this is clearly the best way to prevent people pacifically vote, isn't it?

Have they ever been prevented from choosing their own leaders, even though they wanted to literally destroy Spain?

There was a party, nowadays legal, which was banned for terrorism. That party claimed terrorism wasn't they way to reach the independence, democracy (via referendum) was. Remember one thing, who ended with ETA was basque society.


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I don't think you can understand our thoughts, and that's the real problem. I see your point but there isn't a real solution in your words for at least 50% of catalans.