Plan B
Off Topic => Off Topic => Topic started by: Blitz on October 27, 2017, 06:37:48 pm
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Fuerzaaa
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(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/608/147/05a.jpg)
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You don't pay attention to news, do you?
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Amigo,those actions will only lead to more violence and fights. But that's democratic. People's vote/freedom to choose what they want matters.
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You don't pay attention to news, do you?
Unfortunately the circumstances didn't favor me to know what the topic means this time. :(
Can someone brief me or link me an English article so I can know? Translate isn't working for some reason.
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Fuerzaaa
I don't think it works that simply, Blitz. Besides, separating the Catalonia from Spain won't be profitable for anyone nor for any of the parties of this conflict.
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Can someone brief me or link me an English article so I can know? Translate isn't working for some reason.
If I'm not wrong, he was talking about something related to the independence of Catalunya (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116))
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I don't think it works that simply, Blitz. Besides, separating the Catalonia from Spain won't be profitable for anyone nor for any of the parties of this conflict.
It's double standards, Skittles. When it suits the EU and USA interests, it's allowed for some regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence) to seceede. When it's about an EU member state, then it's not allowed. Rules don't apply to everyone, it seems
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Todo vuelve, dentro de algunas décadas esto no servirá, pero bueno es su decisión.
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Interest rules the world.
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Territory does not belong to people, but to the country. That is a way to avoid conflicts.
Constitution is very clear - the only way for people to decide what to do with "territory" is a plebiscite for the whole county, not for the part.
When you are breaking this main law of constitution, bad things could happen.
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Spain dismissed Catalonia's president and Cabinet, and dissolved its Parliament on Friday hours after lawmakers in the autonomous region defied Madrid and voted to declare independence.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy called new elections and fired the Catalan police chief, as part of an unprecedented package of measures to seize control of the renegade administration in Barcelona...
He said the moves were needed to restore legality, after a political and constitutional crisis that has gripped the country for months.
Mr Rajoy said "we never wanted to come to this point", adding that his aim is "to return [Catalonia] to normality and legality as soon as possible".
Why our latino friends talk about Politics problems nowadays.. :'(
here. (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=2026.0)
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Skitt ask me for my opinion so here I am.
I don't think it works that simply, Blitz. Besides, separating the Catalonia from Spain won't be profitable for anyone nor for any of the parties of this conflict.
Catalonia is a strong autonomous community, it has highest GDP in Spain. The return of money from Madrid (which collects the money) is less than the Catalonia generates. Maybe it wouldn't be profitable for Catalonia first months cause financial uncertainty but be sure it would change.
It's double standards, Skittles. When it suits the EU and USA interests, it's allowed for some regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence) to seceede. When it's about an EU member state, then it's not allowed. Rules don't apply to everyone, it seems
+1 Some countries are still working as an empire; they want to control the world.
Territory does not belong to people, but to the country. That is a way to avoid conflicts.
And what makes a country if it ain't its people?
Constitution is very clear - the only way for people to decide what to do with "territory" is a plebiscite for the whole county, not for the part.
When you are breaking this main law of constitution, bad things could happen.
It's about democracy not about laws. Laws have to be adapted to people needs. Anyways, why doesn't Spain accept neither a plebiscite for the whole county?
Spain dismissed Catalonia's president and Cabinet, and dissolved its Parliament on Friday hours after lawmakers in the autonomous region defied Madrid and voted to declare independence.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy called new elections and fired the Catalan police chief, as part of an unprecedented package of measures to seize control of the renegade administration in Barcelona...
What will happen if Catalonian independentists win again the new elections? Will they be fired again until Madrid win??
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It's double standards, Skittles. When it suits the EU and USA interests, it's allowed for some regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence) to seceede. When it's about an EU member state, then it's not allowed. Rules don't apply to everyone, it seems
Well, maybe other countries have double standards, but the government of Spain never recognized Kosovo and probably never will since otherwise it would make no sense not to recognize an hypothetical future independent Catalonia.
Skitt ask me for my opinion so here I am.
I don't think it works that simply, Blitz. Besides, separating the Catalonia from Spain won't be profitable for anyone nor for any of the parties of this conflict.
Catalonia is a strong autonomous community, it has highest GDP in Spain. The return of money from Madrid (which collects the money) is less than the Catalonia generates. Maybe it wouldn't be profitable for Catalonia first months cause financial uncertainty but be sure it would change.
It's double standards, Skittles. When it suits the EU and USA interests, it's allowed for some regions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence) to seceede. When it's about an EU member state, then it's not allowed. Rules don't apply to everyone, it seems
+1 Some countries are still working as an empire; they want to control the world.
Territory does not belong to people, but to the country. That is a way to avoid conflicts.
And what makes a country if it ain't its people?
Constitution is very clear - the only way for people to decide what to do with "territory" is a plebiscite for the whole county, not for the part.
When you are breaking this main law of constitution, bad things could happen.
It's about democracy not about laws. Laws have to be adapted to people needs. Anyways, why doesn't Spain accept neither a plebiscite for the whole county?
Spain dismissed Catalonia's president and Cabinet, and dissolved its Parliament on Friday hours after lawmakers in the autonomous region defied Madrid and voted to declare independence.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy called new elections and fired the Catalan police chief, as part of an unprecedented package of measures to seize control of the renegade administration in Barcelona...
What will happen if Catalonian independentists win again the new elections? Will they be fired again until Madrid win??
Catalonia collects more money than it receives like any other major industrial region of any country. Madrid also collects much more money than we receive. And probably New York collects much more taxes than Alabama... and so on. Simply because the economic activities are never distributed equally all around the territory. In a hypothetical independent Catalonia, do you think the same problem wouldn't exist? Barcelona would collect most of the GDP, and other provinces like Lleida would be constantly receiving rather than giving.
Of course laws should be adapted to meet people demands and not the other way around. That's what the Parliament and the Senate are for. Those two institutions have the power to change the law and make any referendum political fórces demand. For the moment, neither the majority of these political forces that represent the majority of citizens has decided to do so. So I'd say law is already adapted to people demands.
If pro independence parties win the election, they will rule the regional government as they have been doing the last decade. They would only be stopped from doing so if they broke the law and disobeyed court orders. Please stop pretending the central government can 'fire' a regional government at will at any time.
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Catalonia collects more money than it receives like any other major industrial region of any country. Madrid also collects much more money than we receive. And probably New York collects much more taxes than Alabama... and so on. Simply because the economic activities are never distributed equally all around the territory. In a hypothetical independent Catalonia, do you think the same problem wouldn't exist? Barcelona would collect most of the GDP, and other provinces like Lleida would be constantly receiving rather than giving.
Of course laws should be adapted to meet people demands and not the other way around. That's what the Parliament and the Senate are for. Those two institutions have the power to change the law and make any referendum political fórces demand. For the moment, neither the majority of these political forces that represent the majority of citizens has decided to do so. So I'd say law is already adapted to people demands.
If pro independence parties win the election, they will rule the regional government as they have been doing the last decade. They would only be stopped from doing so if they broke the law and disobeyed court orders. Please stop pretending the central government can 'fire' a regional government at will at any time.
This independence isn't only for economic reasons. Catalonia has its own culture, different to spanish.
And no, laws aren't adapted to people demands. You can see in past elections. The most voted parties on spain and Catalonia aren't the same, even opposed. Laws are adapted to spanish/castilian people, but forgot there is other political subjects with different ideology and needs.
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This independence isn't only for economic reasons.
No one said so, neither did I.
Catalonia has its own culture, different to spanish.
You talk about Spanish culture like there was a single standard Spanish culture. Traditions, and sometimes even languages, vary a lot from one region to another. It happens in almost every country, and especially in Europe. The point that makes Spain stand out is that, since democracy was established, the government has constantly supported those differences and languages, rather than hide them or even ban them. Just a quick example: France doesn't even recognize languages such as Occitan or Euskera as official, even though they are widely spoken in some regions this country. In Spain, Catalan is not only official, but you can also get a fine for writing your business sign only in Spanish and not in Catalan. That's quite shocking when compared to France, huh?
Laws are adapted to spanish/castilian people, but forgot there is other political subjects with different ideology and needs.
Who forgot what? As far as I know, those people with 'different ideology and needs' also participate in the elections and also get seats in the Parliament. I suppose you refer to nationalism, so let's have a look to how those forgotten people are represented:
- ERC: 9 seats
- EAJ-PNV: 5 seats
- PDeCat: 4 seats
- EH Bildu: 2 seats
And I haven't bothered including Canarian and Valencian nationalists, but the lists continues.
What is more, you aren't only as represented as I am, you're way more represented (https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2016/06/27/actualidad/1467014352_924244.html). To get a parliament seat are needed 97,617 votes from people like me. To get a parliament seat for a nationalist are needed 57,243 votes (for PNV, as an example). So basically my vote has less power of changing laws, adapting them to our needs, than a vote from a Catalonian nationalist.
I don't know style, you have a very interesting concept of what being forgotten is like. I think you just want those 13 Catalonian nationalists to be able to change laws even though the other 337 members of the parliament don't want to.
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You talk about Spanish culture like there was a single standard Spanish culture. Traditions, and sometimes even languages, vary a lot from one region to another. It happens in almost every country, and especially in Europe. The point that makes Spain stand out is that, since democracy was established, the government has constantly supported those differences and languages, rather than hide them or even ban them. Just a quick example: France doesn't even recognize languages such as Occitan or Euskera as official, even though they are widely spoken in some regions this country. In Spain, Catalan is not only official, but you can also get a fine for writing your business sign only in Spanish and not in Catalan. That's quite shocking when compared to France, huh?
Oh, I see. Since France is worse, I must be happy with Spain. Anyways, "the government has constantly supported those differences and languages" is a lie.
What is more, you aren't only as represented as I am, you're way more represented (https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2016/06/27/actualidad/1467014352_924244.html). To get a parliament seat are needed 97,617 votes from people like me. To get a parliament seat for a nationalist are needed 57,243 votes (for PNV, as an example). So basically my vote has less power of changing laws, adapting them to our needs, than a vote from a Catalonian nationalist.
Why did you use PNV example instead of EH Bildu? Or (from spanish side) Ciudadanos instead of PP? That's not playing fair. Did you see ever this image (https://elpais.com/elpais/imagenes/2016/06/27/media/1467018558_244408_1467020658_noticia_normal.png) from same article? The difference for nationalism parties are 2 seats, what means less than 0,6% of all seats.
I think you just want those 13 Catalonian nationalists to be able to change laws even though the other 337 members of the parliament don't want to.
No, all I want is catalans (nationalists and not nationalists) to be able to make his own laws (and I'm not talking about independence from spain) since they have different needs.
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Oh, I see. Since France is worse, I must be happy with Spain. Anyways, "the government has constantly supported those differences and languages" is a lie.
My intention wasn't to show that worse places exist, but to highlight that even in fully democratic and widely considered modern countries, like France, the linguistic or cultural policies aren't as open to diversity as they are in Spain. This is why I have serious problems to understand why anyone in Catalonia or in the Basque Country would feel oppressed by Spain. In which way does that oppression work? Have Basque or Catalan been banned from schools or universities? It's the opposite, there are more hours taught in Catalan than in Spanish. Have they ever been prevented from writing legal documents in their language? No, legal documents are totally valid whether in Spanish or in any co-official language. Have they ever been prevented from choosing their own leaders, even though they wanted to literally destroy Spain? Never, that's why Puigdemont became the president, huh?
I really have trouble finding the oppression. It's way more easy to understand left-wing movements, such as abertzales or CUP party. At least they reject Spain because they don't want to live in a capitalist country in a capitalist Europe... it makes way more sense than who calls himself independentist just to gain a freedom that nobody denied.
Why did you use PNV example instead of EH Bildu? Or (from spanish side) Ciudadanos instead of PP? That's not playing fair. Did you see ever this image (https://elpais.com/elpais/imagenes/2016/06/27/media/1467018558_244408_1467020658_noticia_normal.png) from same article? The difference for nationalism parties are 2 seats, what means less than 0,6% of all seats.
I used those examples because they are the extreme evidence that you aren't only not forgotten, but also treated better than other national political forces, such as Ciudadanos.
No, all I want is catalans (nationalists and not nationalists) to be able to make his own laws (and I'm not talking about independence from spain) since they have different needs.
They already make their own laws, that's why autonomical parliaments exist. But I think you're referring to total independence and sovereignty, huh? Granting sovereignty to an autonomous community would be against the Constitution and that community very own Estatute. Could Mr. Rajoy grant sovereignty ignoring the Constutitution? No, he couldn't even in the unlikely event he wanted to. What is the solution then? Modify the Constitution. It can be done and it is perfectly legal. Right now only the 69 members from Podemos and the nationalists parties, out of 350, support a referendum being held. I think it's obvious that more support is needed to change the law and have a referendum and eventually independence, huh?
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only me who has notice :o
nice disscusion.
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I really have trouble finding the oppression.
Is the Spanish government's reaction to the whole thing not at least vaguely oppressive? I don't know much about the cultural nuances of the situation, but it seems like more of the world should outraged, if they weren't afraid of their own secessionist movements popping up.
Territory does not belong to people, but to the country. That is a way to avoid conflicts.
Last I checked, that hasn't worked out well either.
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I fear FCB will leave laliga soon.
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This is why I have serious problems to understand why anyone in Catalonia or in the Basque Country would feel oppressed by Spain.
Just open your eyes. Do you hear about Franco? GAL? ZEN? You want people to forget more than 80 years oppressed, even killed, because you just started to theard them more or less equally during last... 15? years. Anyways, in example, not every subjects can be studied in Basque at our universities and Basque (Lingua Navarrorum) ain't co-official language in certain parts of Navarre. Also, this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJaUnVsE3Dg)is clearly the best way to prevent people pacifically vote, isn't it?
Have they ever been prevented from choosing their own leaders, even though they wanted to literally destroy Spain?
There was a party, nowadays legal, which was banned for terrorism. That party claimed terrorism wasn't they way to reach the independence, democracy (via referendum) was. Remember one thing, who ended with ETA was basque society.
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I don't think you can understand our thoughts, and that's the real problem. I see your point but there isn't a real solution in your words for at least 50% of catalans.