Author Topic: [Added]Presi camping in the air  (Read 2346 times)

Offline SoLoD

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[Added]Presi camping in the air
« on: October 11, 2017, 09:37:42 pm »
So, today was camping with presi in dodo in LS, was pretty funny (not for terrors since they were like no-air-skill), and they only problem for me was that anti-presi-in-the-air system.
It is pretty hard for pres to get aircraft to camp, if terrors are close to presi when he is taking it, they are killing aircraft in, like, 3 seconds.
So, it is pretty obvious, that when presi is running for it, he wants to use it "whole" round, not just 3-4 minutes. Because he is gambling too much.
And this "system" is working in  very weird way - taking away more hps more time presi is camping in the air.
So, to survive in the air, you need to pick hp TWO times, and it is pretty risky, not only because terrors can easily arrive, but because there are only few hp spots to take with aircraft, and some of them requires, well, skill that is above avarage in ptp.
My suggestions is:
1) Put system into "taking away 90 hp in 15 minutes" mode for president.
2) Put more hp spots for president, on the skyscrapers in LS, some roofs in LV and SF.
3) Remove "system".
4) Taking away armor first, then hp.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 03:48:56 pm by Jonne »
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Offline Shark_The_Helicopter

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2017, 10:08:14 pm »
The regulars will probably down this topic like the old ones  lol.

But I agree to the rooftop pickups it makes sense on the city maps like LS and SF. Good for BMXing Presis and the Flying ones. Would give a whole new perspective to Surfing and Rooftop battles.

I am confused for LS but about the other maps:

SF: The various parking lot which would have enough space for a skilled take off and bit enough time against the Ground Noobs, but that also means that you have a chance to go up and eliminate the president if the skill ratio favours you.

LV: Caligula's Casino's second building that is not connected to the accessible rooftops and that castle like building near the FCR900 Health Spawn.

WV: Various rock formations like the ones opposite to Civilian Spawn.

NSA: Same but with protection covers.

As for the Air Camping?

Yes it's too harsh and ridiculous for NSA.

Remove it for NSA please and reduce the HP loss if the rooftop pickups aren't possible.

Yes, Armor loss first should be implemented you need to keep in mind that sometimes Presi would be forced to eject on a lower height due to the timer and would fall but take damage if it's already fucked by the Air Camping rule he is pretty much dead.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 10:10:00 pm by Lohit_The_Noob »
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Offline COBRA

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2017, 11:13:09 am »
I agree with the basic idea of this suggestion but if I go in details;

I don't agree with adding/removing the health losing on air camp idea. Because this system works well and if we make this lose 90hp per 15 mins, it's too long really. But instead of adding this system, just adding some health spawns on top of roofs/buildings/high places, will be useful for president. So he needs to refil his health and it brings action for air campers.

So I just agree with the number #2
Quote
Put more hp spots for president, on the skyscrapers in LS, some roofs in LV and SF.

Offline YoMama

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2017, 07:58:17 am »
2) Put more hp spots for president, on the skyscrapers in LS, some roofs in LV and SF.
I don't like the idea of putting health and armor in places that aren't easily accessible to everyone at any time. Since the multiple health spawns were created, a President's survival has often depended on him getting to an out-of-the-way armor spawn without many people who could take away their last remaining sliver of HP. This is really hard on the ground- even if you get to a spawn, you'll quickly be overrun if you don't manage to separate yourself from the terrorists and civilians chasing you. If spawns are added on buildings, then all a President has to do is fly their plane, ignoring damage because they'll probably make it, jump out onto the health, and survive. They don't even have to worry about the planes following them, because they can just parachute off the building- granted, it's still possible to kill them (by ramming them off the building, for example), but it's not as high-stakes anymore. You can fly in and do the same thing on the ground, but it's much harder to get away. I often avoid armor and health, even when I'm low, because it's too much of a risk.

3) Remove "system".
The penalty timer is quite dumb. It fucks with the whole "Terrorist kills the President" aspect of the game: if I'm already being fucked over by someone who actually knows what they're doing, it's just salt in my wounds. If my health is already low, there's a point where I just have to bail out or die, which is kind of a rip off for the person who was just about to shoot me down. If the Terrorists are being lazy, it's just annoying. The only thing it does do is force me to land every once in a while, which I almost always do anyway. If you want something to hamper the President's ability to fly, get in a fucking Rustler. I have to change my style of flying entirely once someone else is in the air, regardless of skill level or what I'm flying. I can't really fly where I want to; I have to go into avoidance mode.

If you want to defend the air timer, first justify why there is an air timer, but there isn't a timer for NRGs, or why there isn't an Area 69 timer, or why there isn't a ship timer. These are all situations where the President is much harder to kill than in the air, and his security don't even need to be that good to pull it off. No one, alone, can really kill a President without a hell of a lot of luck when he's at the bottom of Area 69 with good security lining the way in. Add a protecting Hydra and it's near impossible. Timer or no timer, I've always been able to shoot down the President when he's flying- alone, and even if the security shoots me down. The timer doesn't do anything but kick him when he's already down. If he really doesn't like the timer, but wants to fly, then he will often surf on a Shamal, which is actually a little unfair and definitely the opposite of what the timer is supposed to do (though probably still more fair than having 15 VIP securities in Area 69).


Random diatribe/story: I have a lot of respect for Tenshi because he did keep PTP running for his time running the community, but he didn't have any qualms about fucking with the game because he didn't like something. It wasn't democratic, and he didn't like losing or being in any way the underdog- if anyone remembers him playing, particularly more recently, they probably remember him playing with a relatively large posse of regulars and winning. I'm sure almost everyone has a memory of him abusing his power just because he didn't like something that someone else was doing, not because he'd made a rule preventing it. He'd constantly pull this on me, which I was kind of OK with because it often involved a rare dogfight with a Hunter or fight against him with a heat-seeking RPG. Sometimes it was ejecting me or blowing up my plane; another favorite was putting up a cage right when I was about to ram him, which I would play Russian roulette with anyway.

However, I've always fucking hated the "aircamping" timer. It appeared, out of nowhere and with no vote or suggestion made, around the same time that the far more reasonable "watercamping" timer appeared (although I don't think the watercamping timer is quite so necessary in the age of lagcomp). I'm pretty sure that I remember him gloating about how I wouldn't be able to fly the President around with it in place. There wasn't any problem with people "abusing" planes, it was just because he didn't like people flying. I think it actually took down less health over time than the current system, but it did it immediately- I remember people staging impressive evacuations by helicopter for the President and his security, only for the President to be killed by the fucking timer shortly after he'd taken off. I can't even quantify how many Presidents I've effectively personally protected up to the point of getting in a plane, at which point they panicked because of the timer, bailed out right when I was taking off, and died. It would be hilarious if it weren't so fucking sad that a bullshit timer has been stopping new players from wanting to even entertain the idea of flying. It would be hilarious if this shit weren't still happening.
TL; DR: To me, the timer is one of the few holdovers from Tenshi's style of managing PTP. It's petty, not effective at accomplishing its stated goal, disproportionately punishes people who have little to no skill in planes, and its "goal" was dubious to begin with.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:02:49 am by YoMama »

Offline Bully

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2017, 08:14:50 am »
For #2  +1

Offline Madman

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2017, 09:33:55 am »
I agree with the basic idea of this suggestion but if I go in details;

I don't agree with adding/removing the health losing on air camp idea. Because this system works well and if we make this lose 90hp per 15 mins, it's too long really. But instead of adding this system, just adding some health spawns on top of roofs/buildings/high places, will be useful for president. So he needs to refil his health and it brings action for air campers.

So I just agree with the number #2
Quote
Put more hp spots for president, on the skyscrapers in LS, some roofs in LV and SF.
Now we're talking about ;) +1
[08:42:45] * You killed Schottky_BiB (23): Distance: 202 | Weapon: Sniper Rifle
[08:47:51] <Schottky_BiB> {33CCFF}[23] {FFFFFF}madman using sensfix lmao
[08:48:34] * You killed Schottky_BiB (23): Distance: 215 | Weapon: Sniper Rifle
[08:48:52] PM from Schottky_BiB(23): are you using sensfix?

Offline Shark_The_Helicopter

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2017, 04:29:57 pm »
2) Put more hp spots for president, on the skyscrapers in LS, some roofs in LV and SF.
I don't like the idea of putting health and armor in places that aren't easily accessible to everyone at any time. Since the multiple health spawns were created, a President's survival has often depended on him getting to an out-of-the-way armor spawn without many people who could take away their last remaining sliver of HP. This is really hard on the ground- even if you get to a spawn, you'll quickly be overrun if you don't manage to separate yourself from the terrorists and civilians chasing you. If spawns are added on buildings, then all a President has to do is fly their plane, ignoring damage because they'll probably make it, jump out onto the health, and survive. They don't even have to worry about the planes following them, because they can just parachute off the building- granted, it's still possible to kill them (by ramming them off the building, for example), but it's not as high-stakes anymore. You can fly in and do the same thing on the ground, but it's much harder to get away. I often avoid armor and health, even when I'm low, because it's too much of a risk.

3) Remove "system".
The penalty timer is quite dumb. It fucks with the whole "Terrorist kills the President" aspect of the game: if I'm already being fucked over by someone who actually knows what they're doing, it's just salt in my wounds. If my health is already low, there's a point where I just have to bail out or die, which is kind of a rip off for the person who was just about to shoot me down. If the Terrorists are being lazy, it's just annoying. The only thing it does do is force me to land every once in a while, which I almost always do anyway. If you want something to hamper the President's ability to fly, get in a fucking Rustler. I have to change my style of flying entirely once someone else is in the air, regardless of skill level or what I'm flying. I can't really fly where I want to; I have to go into avoidance mode.

If you want to defend the air timer, first justify why there is an air timer, but there isn't a timer for NRGs, or why there isn't an Area 69 timer, or why there isn't a ship timer. These are all situations where the President is much harder to kill than in the air, and his security don't even need to be that good to pull it off. No one, alone, can really kill a President without a hell of a lot of luck when he's at the bottom of Area 69 with good security lining the way in. Add a protecting Hydra and it's near impossible. Timer or no timer, I've always been able to shoot down the President when he's flying- alone, and even if the security shoots me down. The timer doesn't do anything but kick him when he's already down. If he really doesn't like the timer, but wants to fly, then he will often surf on a Shamal, which is actually a little unfair and definitely the opposite of what the timer is supposed to do (though probably still more fair than having 15 VIP securities in Area 69).

...

However, I've always fucking hated the "aircamping" timer..

..I think it actually took down less health over time than the current system, but it did it immediately- I remember people staging impressive evacuations by helicopter for the President and his security, only for the President to be killed by the fucking timer shortly after he'd taken off. I can't even quantify how many Presidents I've effectively personally protected up to the point of getting in a plane, at which point they panicked because of the timer, bailed out right when I was taking off, and died. It would be hilarious if it weren't so fucking sad that a bullshit timer has been stopping new players from wanting to even entertain the idea of flying. It would be hilarious if this shit weren't still happening.
TL; DR: To me, the timer is one of the few holdovers from Tenshi's style of managing PTP. It's petty, not effective at accomplishing its stated goal, disproportionately punishes people who have little to no skill in planes, and its "goal" was dubious to begin with.





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Offline Sebastian

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2017, 06:27:33 pm »
2): +1
For the last suggestion, what do you mean?


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Offline Altus_Demens

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 02:52:01 pm »
SF: The various parking lot which would have enough space for a skilled take off and bit enough time against the Ground Noobs
Oh, I like this celestial arrogancy. :)

I've got one question towards you, SoLoD (maybe YoMama would like to reply though, I would only welcome it).
In January, Jonne has removed any penalties for flying presidents. We played in such environment almost for a month. After that, a voting took place - if we should bring back the aircamping timer and the president's ability to fly. 60% of voted decided that we should. 48 players expressed their opinion! It is a big part of the active part of our community. Thus, the suggestion was considered, added, given a try, voted and eventually reverted by the most democratic way - a secret ballot:
Last update on this: the poll closed and the majority voted to remove the ability for presidents to fly, so the system has been reverted back to what it was.

So, why in the world do you keep bringing this topic back? Normally, the topics which duplicate the same suggestion posted in the past are getting instantly locked. Only this subject is tolerated to be discussed again, and again, and again, and again. Of course, I understand it, and I also think that my suggestions are reasonable and useful for this server - yet I find this situation to be deeply wrong and unfair. Explain me, please, why do you act so.

I also loved this:
What a flabby decision. They were voting for what is the best for themselfs, not for the server.
If we speak about fairness, shouldn't the players make decision about their gaming server, where they spend their free time and have fun, on their own, not in the name of some abstract and dubious idea of SoLoD's vision about what is the best for the server? Clarify this too, please. Now, back to the topic.



I'll basically repeat myself. YoMama is right: the legal status of 'aircamping', or 'Area 69 camping', or 'NRG whoring' is purely a matter of agreement between the players and the administration. If we take hacking forbiddance as a ius deorum, any sort of camping proscription is surely a ius hominum. The timer and the inaccessibility of rustlers for the president are here because the community wanted it. Personally I support it too for a set of reasons:
  • First, I don't really find airborne skirmishes funny and interesting. They seem to be pretty straightword, they rather demand some mechanical skill than cunning or tactics: as YoMama said himself, the rustler can only be countered with another rustler or a shamal with onboard shooters (the last doesn't sound realistic, imho). Of course, I don't judge only from my own, unprofessional experience; I watched a lot of SAMP dogfight videos before posting this. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy flying, and, as many of you have seen, I fly a lot during my games. But dogfights... Sometimes I engage equally skilled opponents, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but I can't say I enjoy such fights. It reminds me of duels or dbduels. It can be exciting sometimes, but interesting? For sure, no. YoMama might remember our conversations with him before the aforementioned January update. I was unsure if I would like to see presidents flying rustlers back in the days; I was unsure during the testing month as well. But now, looking from retrospective, I know that I wouldn't like to see the presidents aircamping again. This reason is the most subjective (the others are kinda subjective too) and I apologise if I offended anyone by posting it, but, well, it is a part of my perception of this game, what can I do?
  • Second, considering the typical situation on the server when most of the regulars tend to have peace with each other, shooting down the regular president would really be complicated. YoMama, an experienced pilot, stated that it is hard for him to defend even from two mediocre enemy rustler pilots. Now I clearly imagine the ruslters of Mia and me fighting a dozen of the regulars' rustlers. Even if we two were YoMamas, I am sorry, I am unwilling to experience it.
  • Third, as for me, the compromiss is already reached. The president is allowed to fly any aircraft except rustlers and hydra. If you want to fly as a president, you are welcome. The aircamping timer should be there to make the president descend from the Heavens at least once in a while. Yes, I also don't want to climb to the uttermost height with my rustlers only to shoot the president who decided to survive by circling around up there for 15 minutes. I don't think that armour should be reduced while air camping. You don't have to rush to the health spawns in order to refill: you can use a vending machine which are present on every map but one. If you want to do it unspotted, well... It would come in handy with the disappearing president suggestion. It can even be sort of interesting.

Once again, don't get me wrong. Flying itself is fun and awesome. You are right, YoMama, the fifth ocean, the third dimension should be widely used. I just don't want to spend entire rounds there without seeing the ground. After all, I don't want to give the president such option.

It happened so I basically replied to this topic too. I'll give a link to my response from there as well.

TL;DR: -1 to this suggestion from me.
Under the discussion, I reconsidered my position: I stay neutral.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 12:05:28 am by Altus_Demens »
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Offline SoLoD

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2017, 05:37:45 pm »
Oh, I like this celestial arrogancy. :)
And you should. Because there is nothing better than when you are enraging crying powerless ground monkeys.

We played in such environment almost for a month.
Last update on this: the poll closed and the majority voted to remove the ability for presidents to fly, so the system has been reverted back to what it was.

The funny thing is the amount of "presi air campers" on that month. I guess it is gonna surprise you, but that amount was not x10 times bigger than before. Actually, it was pretty close to average number from the previous month, and previous. Do you know why? Because president is camping on the air only if: he is newbee and thinking it is gonna be easy OR if he is pretty sure that he can win the round. How many players do we have on the server from the last category? 3.5? Not sure that is making big difference to average game round.
And you know how ptpers were voting? They were voting by inertia.

Normally, the topics which duplicate the same suggestion posted in the past are getting instantly locked.
Normally, you are reading topic before posting.  Normally you can not call topic "same" if it has "new" suggestions.

If we speak about fairness, shouldn't the players make decision about their gaming server, where they spend their free time and have fun, on their own, not in the name of some abstract and dubious idea of SoLoD's vision about what is the best for the server? Clarify this too, please. Now, back to the topic.
Fun? Boy, let me tell you something about this server. When ptp had ~100 players online, when president was running from terrors, and behind him was a running mess of 40-50 players - that was fun.
When there was 20-30 aircrafts in the air - that was fun.
When every single regular is regularly camping at armor for easy kills - is it fun?
Do you wanna tell me about decisions? There should be only ONE player in the game with a choise. Choise of how the round will be played. And do you know who is it? It is president. Because it is ptp.
Sadly that i need to tell that to "ptp admin".
And when terrors are saying that president should not be able to use aircraft only because at that case poor terrors will not be able to camp near president spawn and kill him 4 second after he leaves spawn... Well, that is your position?

Or maybe, just maybe you wanna talk about other part of "fair play"? When admins are giving vips features that giving HUGE disadvantage compare to someone without that features, and the only way for that non-vip players is to use aircrafts, because regulars have only 1 shit to abuse in the air (snipers rifle) and with their 0-air-skills it is pretty obvious why they are voting against?

So, why that type of players have no rights for "fair fun play"? Even when they are playing as president ( and this topic is all about it), and literally they are determining the round, but you are saying that terros are against it so president can not do it?

YoMama is right: the legal status of 'aircamping', or 'Area 69 camping', or 'NRG whoring' is purely a matter of agreement between the players and the administration.


Againt, use correct words. We are talking not about players or administration. We are talking about 1 player - president.

The timer and the inaccessibility of rustlers for the president are here because the community wanted it.
You are using right words here but with wrong sense.
Every community member has only his own "decision" how to play. It is not about whoel community. Community should not decide what can I do in this gamemode.
Very simple example.
What if your community will vote to restrict usage of ALL non-vip weapons? So, they will be the only ones with actual fire power (according from what i know about "ptp community" this example is not that bad).
Is not it clear that every single player should choose by his own what weapons to use?
But we are talking about president. His desicion affects whole server`s gameplay. BUT IT IS WHAT THIS SERVER ALL ABOUT, isn`t it? He SHOULD have maximum privilages.

First, I don't really find airborne skirmishes funny and interesting.
So, that is why noone as president can not use it. Applause.

>some bullshit from altus about dogfights vs president
Do not want to call a bullshit a bullshit, but this is bulshit.
Very simple way to destroy a rustler with another rustler is... to fight 2 v 1. Interesting, y? Just like in the ground fights. No metter how good the president is in his rustler, he can fight only 1 rustler. At the same time 2nd rustler is just backstabbing president. Very simple. But "ground ptp monkeys" are too dumb to extrapolate what they are doing on the ground (attacking 10 v 1) to the air fight. That is why that monkeys not taking 10 rustlers, but sitting all together on 1 rustler like monkeys sitting on the tree.

Second, considering the typical situation on the server when most of the regulars tend to have peace with each other, shooting down the regular president would really be complicated. YoMama, an experienced pilot, stated that it is hard for him to defend even from two mediocre enemy rustler pilots. Now I clearly imagine the ruslters of Mia and me fighting a dozen of the regulars' rustlers. Even if we two were YoMamas, I am sorry, I am unwilling to experience it.

Yes, what i said before. Only 1 v 1 dogfight. Glad u get it.
All regulars are protecting regular president vs newbs? BUT GUESS WHAT. We have the same situation on the ground as well. And you know what? We are not restricting president from camping on the ground.
How do you fight when you attacking president alone vs 10 sec/cops? You are attacking sec/cops? No, you go to the president.
So, why dont you make the same at the air? AND EVEN MORE. Since ptp has 3.5 normal skilled pilots, it is not that hard to avoid them.

If you want to fly as a president, you are welcome.
No, i am NOT welcome. When i choose to risk my ass to go to airport, to fly, to be killed on 4 seconds in the air with low chance to surviv after my aircraft crashed, i want at least to have A CHANCE to stay in the air WHOLE round, because this is THE ONLY REASON to use aircraft. Not risking time after time to refil hp.

I just don't want to spend entire rounds there without seeing the ground.
Yeee, ofc, every second president is using aircraft.

After all, I don't want to give the president such option.
Yeee, ofc, you think you are the one to decide how president will play. Of course, president is playing ptp only to make your gameplay "fun".
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Offline Crash

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2017, 08:08:36 pm »
Holy duck... Essay squad!
I don't support your suggestion.
President class won't be fun anymore if mentioned HP removal is going to be scripted.

Offline Altus_Demens

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2017, 10:39:15 pm »
And you should. Because there is nothing better than when you are enraging crying powerless ground monkeys.
Yes, this sort of elitism is amazing. Most of the players here enjoy enraging crying powerless <attribute> monkeys: for one part, it is crying powerless non-VIP mokeys, for another one it's crying powerless not-belonging-to-my-clan monkeys, fot others it is crying powerless low-weapons-skilled monkeys. It seems that playing without contrasting the Lovely and Faultless Yourself and any sort of crying powerless monkeys has no sense. That's where the satisfaction is given birth, huh?

The funny thing is the amount of "presi air campers" on that month. I guess it is gonna surprise you, but that amount was not x10 times bigger than before. Actually, it was pretty close to average number from the previous month, and previous. Do you know why? Because president is camping on the air only if: he is newbee and thinking it is gonna be easy OR if he is pretty sure that he can win the round. How many players do we have on the server from the last category? 3.5? Not sure that is making big difference to average game round.
Not x10, but it was noticeably higher.
Generally, the president is camping in the air if he wants it or thinks that it's gonna save him. As YoMama rightly noticed (I say it too often: but what can I do if he actually says many right things, even though he's my main 'opponent' in the discussion), pointing at him as a reason to forbid air camping in silly. I don't care how many 'players from the last category' we have. If I am against air camping, I am equally against the air camping of YoMama and AwesomeProFaka2006. I explained already why.

And you know how ptpers were voting? They were voting by inertia.
It is a sweet way to negate the results of the voting if you don't like them for any reason. No, it shouldn't work this way. If we play democracy here, let's stick to the rules. The fair voting took place, and its results are univocal no matter if you like it or not.

Normally, you are reading topic before posting.  Normally you can not call topic "same" if it has "new" suggestions.
Still they are the same. Take a look at the recent deagle driveby suggestion. You can post another one - like, "Let's enable deagle driveby, but only for NRGs". Would be the same? De jure - no. De facto - yes.
As for me, the only reason air camping topics are not getting locked instantly is the way YoMama elaborates them. When the AwesomeProFaka2006 posts "Let's give everyone miniguns!!!!!" and YoMama posts another essay, I think the admin's hand trembles to lock the latter topic. I see it this way.

Fun? Boy, let me tell you something about this server. When ptp had ~100 players online, when president was running from terrors, and behind him was a running mess of 40-50 players - that was fun.
When there was 20-30 aircrafts in the air - that was fun.
When every single regular is regularly camping at armor for easy kills - is it fun?
Altus the Boy bows his knees before SoLoD's superior vision of fun and backs his own down.
But what you said is not related to this discussion. I guess that, if we could gain 100 active players online again, it would be fun no matter what. And I agree with you here. There would be a mess behind the president and a lot of aircrafts in the air - just because every single player from those 100 can't be a part of the system of peace-making regulars. I'd love to experience that.
Armour camping is also not related to our question. I agree, it's not much fun. But, as you correctly said, the President is the main figure in our gamemode. If he camps in the air, you have to follow him in the air - if you actually want to play the gamemode. As for the armour campers: if you don't like it, leave them! Don't go to the armour spawn they occupy, let them grow roots there - but without you.

Do you wanna tell me about decisions? There should be only ONE player in the game with a choise. Choise of how the round will be played. And do you know who is it? It is president. Because it is ptp.
Fine - give him a minigun then. Who is the president? He is a player like me and you, not a superior metaphysical omniscient entity. The community decides how the game should be played, and the administration implements it. Then, every member of the community can play as a president and experience the result of it. That's what I meant by the agreement between the players and the administration: the players suggest, discuss and make a decision, the administration approves and adds or discards it. And during the first phase the staff members have exactly the same rights as any other players. That's why your remark -
Sadly that i need to tell that to "ptp admin".
is totally irrelevant. As long as I don't use the admin tools, I am a common player, such as you are, and my opinion has exactly the same weight as yours.

And when terrors are saying that president should not be able to use aircraft only because at that case poor terrors will not be able to camp near president spawn and kill him 4 second after he leaves spawn... Well, that is your position?
No, SoLoD. If you actually want to understand my position - re-read my posts, please. If you just want to flame, I won't accept your game.

Or maybe, just maybe you wanna talk about other part of "fair play"? When admins are giving vips features that giving HUGE disadvantage compare to someone without that features, and the only way for that non-vip players is to use aircrafts, because regulars have only 1 shit to abuse in the air (snipers rifle) and with their 0-air-skills it is pretty obvious why they are voting against?
If you wish, it is worth discussing - but not here. Open a new topic. I basically agree with you, it would be way better if the VIP status wouldn't give any advantage, but only cosmetic things. If such a suggestion is posted, I would surely give +1 to it. In the meantime, you are wrong saying that it gives a determining advantage. Both VIP weapons have its counterparts. I bought VIP after playing here for a year - playing in an extremely hostile environment. If you were objectively right, I wouldn't enjoy a single hour of that year spent on PTP.

So, why that type of players have no rights for "fair fun play"? Even when they are playing as president ( and this topic is all about it), and literally they are determining the round, but you are saying that terros are against it so president can not do it?
Not the terrors, but the community.

You are using right words here but with wrong sense.
Every community member has only his own "decision" how to play. It is not about whoel community. Community should not decide what can I do in this gamemode.
Who should then? Who would you grant your rights to express your opinion and determine the way you want to play this game to? We don't have any Gods among us unfortunately.

What if your community will vote to restrict usage of ALL non-vip weapons? So, they will be the only ones with actual fire power (according from what i know about "ptp community" this example is not that bad).
Is not it clear that every single player should choose by his own what weapons to use?
Then it means that the community wants to destroy itself. It would completely remove the inflow any new, fresh players and the community would die in its own feces in no time. You shouldn't be a Stephen Hawking to understand it; that's why nobody would suggest it following the instinct of self-preservation.
Anyways, if there are clearly absurd suggestions such as enabling deagle driveby, the administrators, wearing the role of judges (because - who else then?), blocks them.

So, that is why noone as president can not use it. Applause.
If you read carefully, you'd have noticed that I emphasised that my point of view is utterly subjective. My own position doesn't determine much. But if others agree with this subjective point of view too, it shouldn't be ignored.

Do not want to call a bullshit a bullshit, but this is bulshit.
Very simple way to destroy a rustler with another rustler is... to fight 2 v 1. Interesting, y? Just like in the ground fights. No metter how good the president is in his rustler, he can fight only 1 rustler. At the same time 2nd rustler is just backstabbing president. Very simple. But "ground ptp monkeys" are too dumb to extrapolate what they are doing on the ground (attacking 10 v 1) to the air fight. That is why that monkeys not taking 10 rustlers, but sitting all together on 1 rustler like monkeys sitting on the tree.
Again, if you read carefully and didn't rush to stigmatize 'pathetic ground monkeys', you'd have learnt that I wrote exactly the same. So, the determining factor if the president succeeds in air camping or not would be the numbers of the attacking and protecting team. Thus, a VIP clan member would mostly win and a newbie would lose even if he is a good and smart pilot. Once again, personally I wouldn't like to see it. You've got way more options to survive on the ground even if the whole server is against you.

All regulars are protecting regular president vs newbs? BUT GUESS WHAT. We have the same situation on the ground as well. And you know what? We are not restricting president from camping on the ground.
SoLoD, if you don't like and if you know that you'd be supported, go and post it. I partially agree with you: to break the superior defense for the 586th time a day to kill a VIP president whilst all players are his security and you only have AwesomeProFaker2006 in your team is not funny.
You have to realise that you can determine the way the game is played here. The administration listens to people's opinions. It's not our CIS countries you and I are living in. For now, you rather sound like an accountant from the old anecdote, who, having the same salary as a programmer, learnt that the boss decided to raise programmer's salary, resented, was suggested to raise her salary as well, but rejected it, saying like "Just don't give any extra money to a programmer".

No, i am NOT welcome. When i choose to risk my ass to go to airport, to fly, to be killed on 4 seconds in the air with low chance to surviv after my aircraft crashed, i want at least to have A CHANCE to stay in the air WHOLE round, because this is THE ONLY REASON to use aircraft. Not risking time after time to refil hp.
So, once again, it would mostly depend on the number of your protection team which would ensure your successful takeoff and staying in the air...

Yeee, ofc, you think you are the one to decide how president will play. Of course, president is playing ptp only to make your gameplay "fun".
I don't mind repeating it again. Your opinion has as much weight as mine or anyone else's here.



Thanks for replying my questions, I guess we managed to understand each others. Nobody here would bother reading these essays, so I see no point in continuing, nothing fresh and new would be added here. Apparently, as you didn't manage to convince me, I didn't manage to convince you either.

I stick to my -1.
Under the discussion, I reconsidered my position: I stay neutral.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 12:06:08 am by Altus_Demens »
A paltry man and poor of mind
At all things ever mocks;
For never he knows, what he ought to know,
That he is not free from faults.



Offline YoMama

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2017, 11:01:06 pm »
TL; DR (if you're not Altus) :-)
60% of voted decided that we should[remove it]. 48 players expressed their opinion! It is a big part of the active part of our community. Thus, the suggestion was considered, added, given a try, voted and eventually reverted by the most democratic way - a secret ballot ... The fair voting took place, and its results are univocal no matter if you like it or not.
This is bullshit. Yes, 60% of our mostly-VIP forum community voted to revert it in January, but really, that's just 10 people. You also have a number of people who don't give a shit, who didn't vote. Also, that vote was just all-or-nothing- there was no compromise. It was no restrictions vs. complete restrictions. It's not a reasonable poll because there aren't choices. You're ignoring the more recent poll that allowed flying, in which I've already discussed this, which is ironic considering that you're complaining about bringing up old things. You're bringing up old voting stats from an obviously flawed and outdated poll to attempt to support your point, which is at best, careless, and at worst, dishonest.

So, why in the world do you keep bringing this topic back? Normally, the topics which duplicate the same suggestion posted in the past are getting instantly locked. Only this subject is tolerated to be discussed again, and again, and again, and again. Of course, I understand it, and I also think that my suggestions are reasonable and useful for this server - yet I find this situation to be deeply wrong and unfair. Explain me, please, why do you act so.
I have said this before, but I think if there were no restrictions to begin with, no one would have a problem with the President flying at all. This is a gradual process. After the first trial, many people realized that it actually didn't ruin the server to have the President flying himself. Now, I would hope that people are possibly more open to the idea of letting him fly without so many bullshit restrictions. The dumb suggestions that keep coming up and getting locked are most often fundamentally incompatible with the gamemode. This suggestion is totally compatible with the gamemode, it just comes down to people realizing that it's not the end of the world and can in fact improve the game. Frankly, the comparison is insulting and misleading.

Quote from: Altus_Demens
As for me, the only reason air camping topics are not getting locked instantly is the way YoMama elaborates them. When the AwesomeProFaka2006 posts "Let's give everyone miniguns!!!!!" and YoMama posts another essay, I think the admin's hand trembles to lock the latter topic ... Anyways, if there are clearly absurd suggestions such as enabling deagle driveby, the administrators, wearing the role of judges (because - who else then?), blocks them.
Again, these topics are not black-and-white absurd suggestions and I take offense at your implication that they are. What happened to "pointing at YoMama as a reason...is silly"? I shouldn't have to elaborate them. In an ideal world, I wouldn't have to keep repeating the same shit over and over to people with little experience in the air who have little grounds for what they're talking about- I hope I'm not causing offense.


Quote from: Altus_Demens
...you are saying that terros are against it so president can not do it?
Not the terrors, but the community.
If we speak about fairness, shouldn't the players make decision about their gaming server, where they spend their free time and have fun, on their own, not in the name of some abstract and dubious idea of SoLoD's vision about what is the best for the server? Clarify this too, please. Now, back to the topic.
I've never heard complaints from a protecting perspective that I can remember. If you want to talk about fairness, talk about how the polls for any major decisions in the server are on the English-only forums, frequented mainly by VIPs. If you really cared about fairness, the polls would be in multiple languages and in-game. I tried to get people in-game to vote in favor of the President flying, but I continually ran into the language barrier. As an example, I couldn't get DILMA_BR to vote, even though he loves flying.

Quote from: Altus_Demens
The administration listens to people's opinions. It's not our CIS countries you and I are living in.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it actually is sort of like the CIS countries. There's nothing wrong with the administration or discussions on the forums regarding important decisions, except that the majority of the people who have a hand in making the decisions are VIPs and all of them are on the language-exclusive forums. It's an unintentional and well-meaning oligarchy. I hope I'm not minimizing the pain that anyone goes through in countries like this when I say this, but my point is that it's not a 100% representative forum.

I'll basically repeat myself. YoMama is right: the legal status of 'aircamping', or 'Area 69 camping', or 'NRG whoring' is purely a matter of agreement between the players and the administration. If we take hacking forbiddance as a ius deorum, any sort of camping proscription is surely a ius hominum. The timer and the inaccessibility of rustlers for the president are here because the community wanted it.
No, they aren't here entirely because the community wanted them. The timer was here because Tenshi put it in and it carried over, and I don't know where the inaccessibility of planes came from (probably also Tenshi, because he didn't like it and I don't remember a suggestion on it, which were only, in the end, decided by him anyway), but it's also here because it carried over. They remain because people who don't know better have grown to see them as necessary, for some reason. As we've seen so far, actually having less restrictions has lead some of those people to wonder why they're there in the first place and change their views somewhat.

First, I don't really find airborne skirmishes funny and interesting. They seem to be pretty straightword, they rather demand some mechanical skill than cunning or tactics: as YoMama said himself, the rustler can only be countered with another rustler or a shamal with onboard shooters (the last doesn't sound realistic, imho). Of course, I don't judge only from my own, unprofessional experience; I watched a lot of SAMP dogfight videos before posting this. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy flying, and, as many of you have seen, I fly a lot during my games. But dogfights... Sometimes I engage equally skilled opponents, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but I can't say I enjoy such fights. It reminds me of duels or dbduels. It can be exciting sometimes, but interesting? For sure, no. YoMama might remember our conversations with him before the aforementioned January update. I was unsure if I would like to see presidents flying rustlers back in the days; I was unsure during the testing month as well. But now, looking from retrospective, I know that I wouldn't like to see the presidents aircamping again. This reason is the most subjective (the others are kinda subjective too) and I apologise if I offended anyone by posting it, but, well, it is a part of my perception of this game, what can I do?
The fact that you say that no cunning or tactics are involved is indicative of your level of knowledge. People on a plane can be very dangerous- there's no way to escape a sight apart from getting behind things. Shamal-shooters cannot be ignored. YouTube videos on dogfighting are mainly made by people who have no idea what they're doing. I am rarely impressed by them. If the person never uses their rudder to turn, ignore the video because they have no idea what they're doing. If the person never looks around with the camera, ignore the video. This cuts out almost all of them. You don't decide whether you like something by watching videos of people who suck. It's like watching some kids trip over a football then deciding that football must be boring and based purely on mechanics. There used to be many pilots in this server who would easily beat you and make a flying President extremely exciting, even though they were average. Now, many of the players don't fly at all because they don't have to, so not enough people have the skill to make it interesting. Lagcomp has also made vehicles less attractive compared to stupid fights on foot, which has guided people away from flying. I think that this will change as people fly more, but it's not going to happen with a timer scaring people off.

Second, considering the typical situation on the server when most of the regulars tend to have peace with each other, shooting down the regular president would really be complicated. YoMama, an experienced pilot, stated that it is hard for him to defend even from two mediocre enemy rustler pilots. Now I clearly imagine the ruslters of Mia and me fighting a dozen of the regulars' rustlers. Even if we two were YoMamas, I am sorry, I am unwilling to experience it.

I said that it's hard to defend against two people when you're alone, but it's not hard to shoot someone down if you want to, even while they're trying to get you- you just have to use tactics to fly above them, dive on the President, and take him out while ignoring the security. I can't often stop people from shooting another person down if they know how to pull it off or I'm caught off-guard. Also, the whole idea of a dozen people flying after you is once again, indicative of your lack of knowledge. Have you ever been in a large group of people while flying? In a less than a minute of packing together to chase you, many of them will have crashed into each other due to lack of skill or lag. It's not like being on the ground. Also, you and Mia would probably be able to shoot down most of those people without a hitch before they could even start to give you damage. You have far better chances than with those 12 regulars in Area 69 with the entrance blocked by a car, which happens every day.

Quote from: Altus_Demens
So, the determining factor if the president succeeds in air camping or not would be the numbers of the attacking and protecting team. Thus, a VIP clan member would mostly win and a newbie would lose even if he is a good and smart pilot...it would mostly depend on the number of your protection team which would ensure your successful takeoff and staying in the air...
Again, not to be offensive, but you're putting your word against mine and that of others who fly more often and have more skill at it. While yes, you can have an opinion, which is better informed?

Third, as for me, the compromiss is already reached. The president is allowed to fly any aircraft except rustlers and hydra. If you want to fly as a president, you are welcome. The aircamping timer should be there to make the president descend from the Heavens at least once in a while. Yes, I also don't want to climb to the uttermost height with my rustlers only to shoot the president who decided to survive by circling around up there for 15 minutes. I don't think that armour should be reduced while air camping. You don't have to rush to the health spawns in order to refill: you can use a vending machine which are present on every map but one.
If the President decides to circle for 15 minutes, then he's probably not going to last 15 minutes, timer or not. The timer doesn't even prevent that or make it easier to kill him. As I said earlier, it's petty, not effective at accomplishing its stated goal, disproportionately punishes people who have little to no skill in planes, and its "goal" was dubious to begin with. However, if you really cared about compromise, you would be backing my suggestion, which is that the penalty is only enforced at higher altitudes. That makes people who need a psychological warm blanket of a bullshit timer happy, and lets the people who actually know what they're doing still have their fun, since they wouldn't be flying around at high altitudes anyway most of the time.

Once again, don't get me wrong. Flying itself is fun and awesome. You are right, YoMama, the fifth ocean, the third dimension should be widely used. I just don't want to spend entire rounds there without seeing the ground. After all, I don't want to give the president such option.
You agree with me that the air should be used, so why are you against a suggestion that will let new players experience it without being scared off by the timer? It's been allowed for a while now, and I don't think I've seen a round like one you claim will occur. You like to point out logical fallacies, but you are ignoring this one along with most of the people who are against this, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: Altus_Demens
The funny thing is the amount of "presi air campers" on that month. I guess it is gonna surprise you, but that amount was not x10 times bigger than before. Actually, it was pretty close to average number from the previous month, and previous.
Not x10, but it was noticeably higher.
Generally, the president is [flying] in the air if he wants it or thinks that it's gonna save him.
I fly because it's fun; most of the time it's more dangerous. I think everyone but the new players knows that flying isn't a magical escape pod. Again, show me how much flying has increased, because I don't remember much of an increase apart from noobs and a few regulars. More importantly, show me how more people flying is in any way bad for the gamemode.

Quote from: Altus_Demens
Do you wanna tell me about decisions? There should be only ONE player in the game with a choise. Choise of how the round will be played. And do you know who is it? It is president. Because it is ptp.
Fine - give him a minigun then. Who is the president? He is a player like me and you, not a superior metaphysical omniscient entity. The community decides how the game should be played, and the administration implements it... I am a common player, such as you are, and my opinion has exactly the same weight as yours.
His point is that the entire gamemode revolves around the President's decisions- if he decides to camp in Area 69, then people following the gamemode will be trying to get into Area 69. If he decides to stunt, then people will be following him on his stunts, etc. People having to follow the President into the air is a logical continuation.

TL;DR:
Try taking a view from my perspective (even though it gives away a few of my NRG tricks).
Here's me trying to fly as the President with competent people who can easily stop me. I deliberately flew as much as I reasonably could as a demonstration. You'll note that I lose more than half my health just taking off, and can kinda avoid Bobo alone by following him, but then he figures out how to counter that tactic and I start taking hits. It wouldn't have taken much longer for him to shoot me down with his new tactic. Once you and Mia show up, I have no hope. I was quickly shot down, and had to go back to NRGs, because, if I really want to win, I don't do stupid things like flying with competent people after me. Had I been in a Rustler, I probably would have been in the process of shooting Bobo down (because he actually knows what he's doing it would have taken some time) and you would have easily screwed me over with or without a sniper. After I crash land and you inexplicably ditch your plane that you could have shot at me from, I have no trouble escaping you when you're right fucking next to me on an NRG with a sniper. I get back into a plane later, and Bobo comes after me again with snipers on his wings, cunningly using a tactic that doesn't allow me to follow him like I did earlier. My only effective choices are to try to escape (impossible) or take him down quickly, which I try to do by ramming him (very risky). If I were in a Rustler, I would have done the same thing. I fail the ram, but I get an NRG and everything is quite easy again. My video ends, before I crash, with basically everyone ignoring me. You can see on the map when I check it; they're all fucking around elsewhere on the ground. It looks like you're busy killing civilians all the way across the map. It seems apparent that the problem is more that people aren't playing the gamemode than that the President can fly. It also seems like flying isn't all that easy if you're a yellow blip on the radar.

the rustler can only be countered with another rustler or a shamal with onboard shooters (the last doesn't sound realistic, imho) ... shooting down the regular president would really be complicated. YoMama, an experienced pilot, stated that it is hard for him to defend even from two mediocre enemy rustler pilots. Now I clearly imagine the ruslters of Mia and me fighting a dozen of the regulars' rustlers. Even if we two were YoMamas, I am sorry, I am unwilling to experience it.
Shamals are harder to shoot down than Rustlers, and they did it without me even being able to damage them. I wouldn't have been able to stop them anyway, but you can see that I messed up my tactics in the beginning of the video by being too low to defend against them in any meaningful way.

It's worth noting that both of these episodes happened on the same day within an hour of each other. My overall point with these videos is that the main problem that you see comes from people ignoring the gamemode, not from anything the President is doing. If all the terrorists had been with Bobo chasing me, I wouldn't have been able to even get off the ground. In the second video, the terrorists who were following the gamemode actually tried and used good tactics to easily kill the President, even with me following them. They had to commit to playing the gamemode. You can't go off and do whatever shit you want to do, then expect to be able to kill the President whenever you want to. You have to continue to follow him and not let up, then it doesn't matter what he does, he's going to have a hard time. If you don't try, it's going to be the same whether he's in the air or not.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:04:39 am by YoMama »

Offline Crash

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2017, 11:24:38 pm »
Good point,@YoMama. I totally agree with all of you said.

Offline Mia

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Re: Presi camping in the air
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 02:06:06 am »
My video ends, before I crash, with basically everyone ignoring me. You can see on the map when I check it; they're all fucking around elsewhere on the ground. It looks like you're busy killing civilians all the way across the map. It seems apparent that the problem is more that people aren't playing the gamemode than that the President can fly. It also seems like flying isn't all that easy if you're a yellow blip on the radar.

I don't think everyone ignored you for simple nastiness and a purposeless irrational desire to make your game boring... everyone ignored you because chasing you was probably one of the dullest things to do during that round.

People join here to do what they enjoy the most, that's not changing no matter how many posts you write moaning about it. Chasing a NRG for 15 minutes or struggling to reach a plane constantly flying up to its ceiling and down is hardly ever in anyone's "what I enjoy the most" list. I'm pretty sure fighting at armor against cops comes before in the majority of those lists, as your experience shows.

You get bored because there's no challenge. Securities get bored because you don't need their duties. Terrorists get bored because they'd prefer to be killing instead of spamming the up key and W for 4 minutes and then giving up. I think the only benefit goes to your President survival stats
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 02:09:33 am by Mia »
Oh! I don't want to fight you, Jorah the Andal. What do I have to gain? If I win, I'm the shit who killed an old man. If I lose, I'm the shit who was killed by an old man.

~ Daario Naharis