[Added]Vehicle surfing changes

[Hicham]

+13

[Chetan]

just remove it lol +1

[Scott_]

I agree with removing for terrorist class but not for civil class.

[Altus_Demens]

I kinda understand your feelings, but I don't think that we should just abandon this idea. The recent forum events have clearly proven that it is better to exclude conflict situations rather than to keep solving them by involving admin actions, which might leave unnecessary dissatisfaction and discontent (Satan, popcornZ). The rule which says

You are not allowed to help the opposing team in any way.

seems to be as unclear as the infamous duty rule.

So I would rather like to adjust the new system properly. Here are the ideas I've been thinking of or heard from the other players:
 - make the president an exception;
 - disallow civilians to surf the cars driven by "good" or "bad" guys only if a civilian has dealt damage to the teammate of the driver of the car they are surfing, during their current life;
 - set up a timer which would push a surfer after some amount of time, which would allow to damage the car/the driver, but make it hard to team up.

Also, please, keep in mind that helping the opposing team by other means than riding together is still punishable!

P.S. Let me explain another time. The civilians are allowed to team up with whoever they like. However, if a civilian is fighting with a "good" or "bad" guy, the teammates of the person who the civilian is fighting with, should at least not interfere or block this person.
Back in 2016 Jonne introduced the system that negates the damage dealt to the car if the driver of the car belongs to the same team as the shooter. This could cause situations where a civilian surfed the car of a "good" or "bad" guy while shooting the teammates of the driver. The teammates of the driver, in turn, couldn't shoot back if the civilian is far enough: due to a SAMP bug, it's often impossible to deal damage to a surfer of an occupied car with a sniper, and they can't damage the car either. It is obviously unfair, because the driver is not responsible for the actions of his fellow civilian surfer, but in the same time it turns out that the driver helps the civilian to attack his teammates. These situations are hard to track and awkward to punish for, as the civilian's actions are natural (civilians can attack anyone they wish), and the driver's actions are not necessarily ill intended. So it's better just to exclude such situations.

[IceBreaker]

This rule was added because some admins cannot be trusted to enforce the "rule" without abusing the vagueness of it.

80% of civilians jump on other classes' cars to kill them, 10% to hitch a ride from a friend while in the middle of nowhere, and 10% newbie backstabbers that shoot at anything that loses health.

+1, please remove this

[DEFENDER]

+100

[Altus_Demens]

That's very nice of you, IceBreaker. Yet another time you prove my point.

80% of civilians jump on other classes' cars to kill them

10% newbie backstabbers that shoot at anything that loses health.

I don't know where did you get these numbers from... Anyway. What's the difference between these statements? The first one is neutral, while the second one consists of a pure contempt. Looks like the first one is applicable to your friendies who kill the right persons, and the second one to those who kill the wrong ones, like most nice and most polite Rubber Ducks.
This PTP 'culture', which discourages killing on a TDM server, is worth laughs and tears. Can you imagine such situation in CS? CoD? Turning a TDM server to an institute of noble maidens or to a battlefield of egos of whining kids who cannot deal with getting killed sometimes too.

10% to hitch a ride from a friend while in the middle of nowhere

Yeah. Friendship is magic. I know you are talking about civilians riding with the other classes, but let me refresh your memories, how it was on the old server where nobody cared: one two three four five.
Since there are still cases of the abuse of this kind, we should have come up with an effective way to prevent it. Also, I think that teaming up with a civilian who was attacking your teammates is basically the same as teaming up with the member of the opposing team. Yet I do not encourage to punish for this, merely excluding such situations is better in any case.

This rule was added because some admins cannot be trusted to enforce the "rule" without abusing the vagueness of it.

If you were right, IceBreaker, Mia would have been kicked out of the staff team at the speed of light. There's no need to build your conspiracy theories, Mia and I are as valuable admins for Jonne as Mive was, no more or no less.

[PakoVH]

I like this update but it should be removed in the terrorist class when they roof in president/security cars because some players used to jump above the presi/security is car (that usually has 2000hp) just to kill them or to force them to leave it but now its more easy to be killed by driveby.

About the admin problems about this rule it will be more easy to punish a terrorist if he roofs on president/security's car and he's not doing any kind of damage.

Thats my opinion about this.

[COBRA]

... but let me refresh your memories, how it was on the old server where nobody cared: one two three four five.
Since there are still cases of the abuse of this kind, we should have come up with an effective way to prevent it. Also, I think that teaming up with a civilian who was attacking your teammates is basically the same as teaming up with the member of the opposing team. Yet I do not encourage to punish for this, merely excluding such situations is better in any case.

  I can't see any civillian surfing with any other team on that videos. Only Terror and police surfing with cop or terror classes in those videos Altus. I'm sure they must had been punished for team blocking, helping teamkill there.

Can you explain me what did happen to sipirit of civilian class being renegade. It lost sipirit now. Civs were free to do everything, they were renegades who can help you and then they were able to kill you. You must accept that situation as it been for 15 years long. Then 2020 comes here, some problem happens and civilian class became a class like as any other usual.

Being civilian is not so interesting now. Well, "you just can't surf and team with any other class." But civs supposed to teamup with any class and any vehicles to surf.

What admins supposed to do?
They can punish if your teammate takes the civ in his car and comes to you with that civ, then that civ starts to kill you; so you can punish that teammate who caused team blocking with surfing with civ.

In the report of Popcornz which caused to enforce this new rule "no surfing":

[20:57:02] [VIP] [ThuG].Satan:  is it allowed when i'm terro and i save a civilian from other terros ?
[20:57:19] [Staff] Mia: No
[20:57:21] [VIP] [RZ]Nada_: allowed allowed

[20:57:21] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ:  civilians can do whatever they want
[20:57:53] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ:  that doesnt give you the right to drop me
[20:58:06] [VIP] [ThuG].Satan:  why cant i save a civilian from other terros ?
[20:58:22] [Staff] Altus_Demens: The same reason why you can't save a cop from the terrors if you are a terro, lol
[20:58:32] [Staff] Mia: Because that civilian can damage your team mates and your team mates can't damage him.
[20:58:35] [Staff] Mia: Not fair.
[20:58:48] [VIP] Rage_: BringBackMia
[20:59:03] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ:  stop coming up with ways to avoid what you have done
[20:59:11] [VIP] Rage_:  Remove Mia forever

[20:59:12] [VIP] [ThuG].Satan:  i think other admins wont agree with u mia
[21:01:39] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ:  civilians can do whatever they want, including teaming up with any team
[21:02:02] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ:  suppose that I am a danger to your teammates, does that give you the right to drop me?
[21:02:20] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ:  this applies no logic
[21:02:50] [VIP] KarBon_BiB: demotion inc

[21:02:50] [VIP] [RD]CockCornZ:  and by giving arguments, you prove yourself that you have dropped me

Admins supposed to punish the guy who caused teamblock. Not to /drop the civ and then kill him with admin power.

As for the actions, we've talked to Mia to clear this up, so this won't happen again. We've also advised admins to not handle cases they're involved in themselves, but rather let them be handled by another, neutral, admin

Like as Jonne said it up there.

And making new system for civilian class. Really useless effort.. Because of admins can't know what to do about those teamblockers, we lost sipirit of Civilian Class. RIP CIVS... That was what Icebreaker talking about admins.

[Finisher]

I strongly agree that opposing teams shouldn’t be able to team up in any shape or form, but doesn’t this also affect a player’s fighting style?

Police inside an infernus trying to drive-by kill Terrorist, will the Terrorist be able to jump on Police car and kill him? Or will the Terrorist be automatically dropped from the Popice car and be killed in the process? This is one simple scenario that most players go through.

This made things really complicated fighting-wise, it didn’t resolve much abuse-wise, it’s just a small matter imho, you’re exaggerating because clans and gangs do exist regardless of the game mode, and I think we should just revert back to the old system and if abuse occurs, a suitable punishment should be awaiting abusers

[Altus_Demens]

Sure, COBRA, I don't mind to answer the questions related to this and taking part in civilized discussions.

Can you explain me what did happen to sipirit of civilian class being renegade. It lost sipirit now. Civs were free to do everything, they were renegades who can help you and then they were able to kill you.

I agree, and it's absolutely the same now. Civilians can do whatever they wish. Moreover, I myself was struggling to find a decent place for civilians in the gamemode. I like this class and I enjoy playing it.

Being civilian is not so interesting now. Well, "you just can't surf and team with any other class." But civs supposed to teamup with any class and any vehicles to surf.

First of all, as I said, civilians still can team up with anyone they wish. If they want to ride with someone else, they should be the driver, though.
Also, as I said, I find it unfair that a non-civilian can give a ride to a civilian who is hostile towards the teammates of a driver. For me, it's pretty much the same as teaming up with a member of the opposite class.

They can punish if your teammate takes the civ in his car and comes to you with that civ, then that civ starts to kill you; so you can punish that teammate who caused team blocking with surfing with civ.

It could be a solution, but, once again, it brings unnecessary dissatisfaction and resentments. The intentions of the driver, who is giving a ride to the civilian, are not always bad! They might just want to play along with their civilian friend, without knowing that the civilian is killing their teammates. That's what I would rather exclude the situations which require such punishments.

Nevertheless, I understand your unhappiness about it, that is why I suggested possible enhancements to the system:

- make the president an exception;
 - disallow civilians to surf the cars driven by "good" or "bad" guys only if a civilian has dealt damage to the teammate of the driver of the car they are surfing, during their current life;
 - set up a timer which would push a surfer after some amount of time, which would allow to damage the car/the driver, but make it hard to team up.

I just don't really want to get rid of it completely.

As for popcornZ' report, I don't think that I should comment it, because Jonne has already handled it. Although what Mia did was not a punishment. Nobody was punished. She just fixed the situation where a civilian was escaping the fight he was engaged in, the same way as we fix those who hide inside the textures. I agree that the way she did it is not perfect. However, we, admins, did not have a better one; now we don't even have to interfere, which should leave no space for any future situations of this kind.

[LPCOLTER]

you wasted your time in watching my stream!!! im so happy.
also demens, that is passive aggression which is intolerable here, I'll get a warning for this message but it's worth it.

[Skittles]

The system should not have been implemented in the first place as it did not solve the Popcorn's report problem. Yes, I support removing it.

[Epps™]

This PTP 'culture', which discourages killing on a TDM server, is worth laughs and tears.

It seems like you just want everyone to play the way you play, which is not right. As long as no one is breaking the rules, let them play however they want to play. Let people have fun however they want to have fun.

And this rule is just stupid. Please remove it.

[Miles]

I support removing it also.