Plan B

General => Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: Miau on April 04, 2017, 09:21:06 pm

Title: Elo rating system
Post by: Miau on April 04, 2017, 09:21:06 pm
Hello,

I was reading this message (http://jonne.be/forum/index.php?topic=1299.msg10791#msg10791) in Kaleth's suggestion and I thought of a system that would encourage players to participate in gamemode-related activities.

It is based on the Elo rating system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system), but it's not exactly the same. It's widely used in chess or in football.

The system is obviously way more complex than the one we are using now, so I'll try to make it clear:





TL;DR
This is a smart scoring system. It calculates how challenging your achievement was. The harder it was, the more score you get. For example, you get more score for killing YoMama as the president than for killing a random newbie (because he has survived many times, he usually camps at difficult places or uses fast vehicles). Another example: you lose more score when you are killed by a newbie than when you are killed by an experienced player with a high score (because being killed by an experienced player is normal, being killed by a newbie who is supposed to be worse than you is not). Last one: you get way more score if you survive as the president while there are 20 terrorists and 3 securities than when it's the other way around.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Uthar_Smith on April 04, 2017, 09:46:26 pm
Sounds pretty cool, but I don't know if it's worth it to script..
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Crash on April 04, 2017, 10:29:33 pm
Sounds pretty cool, but I don't know if it's worth it to script..
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Sani on April 04, 2017, 11:35:06 pm
Sounds pretty cool, but I don't know if it's worth it to script..
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: SLiKkeZ[GgT] on April 05, 2017, 01:39:24 am
the point with the newbie killing you and in that case will cost you more points isnt smart.
more players will go undercover in that case...

although i like the idea.. how much time will it cost in scripting and what about scores from now.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Nazi on April 05, 2017, 02:48:22 am
It's an excellent idea.
+1
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: LPCOLTER on April 05, 2017, 05:29:43 am
I think this system is used in roleplay servers...
This is not good for ptp
-1
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Magic on April 05, 2017, 06:59:37 am
+1 good idea
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: YoMama on April 05, 2017, 08:44:10 am
I was reading this message (http://jonne.be/forum/index.php?topic=1299.msg10791#msg10791) in Kaleth's suggestion and I thought of a system that would encourage players to participate in gamemode-related activities.
I was going to elaborate on my idea, but you beat me to it- thank you for doing the harder work. The original WTF moment or realizing K/D ratios are bullshit in PTP came from WooG.

Here's my modified version, because I didn't like some of your ideas:

a. Killing an enemy who is not the president: +2
b. Killing the president: +7
c. Surviving as the president: 1 point per minute.
d. Being a security less than 300 distance units from the president: 1/3 point per 30 seconds of being near the president
e. Killing an enemy if the killer is a security and is more than 300 distance away from the president: 0 There are plenty of situations where this doesn't mean a security is doing wrong.
f. Being killed: 0 Dying shouldn't matter unless you're president or security near the president.
g. Failing to kill the president (for terrorists): -0.5 points per minute.
h. Disconnecting after playing for n minutes: +n/20 (activity bonus, the anti AFK should prevent from counting time when the player wasn't active) How long you play has little to do with skill.

Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: SoLoD on April 05, 2017, 09:01:34 am
I was thinking about point system in ptp some time ago, but the way you make it, it is pointless. I see many numbers, but what is the point of this system? Getting points to have... more points?
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Ege on April 05, 2017, 09:13:05 am
Is this really needed?
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Miau on April 05, 2017, 10:13:50 am
Is this really needed?

I don't think KD ratios and other scoring systems show anything in PTP. This is not a plain simple TDM game, but a gamemode with a specific task for every team. I believe you should get a greater reward if you complete the task assigned to your team. The more challenging it was, the better the reward should be. And also a penalization if you fail to complete the task. When I say task, I say killing or protecting the president. Given the generalized objective of getting easy kills while ignoring the president in order to get the highest ratio, yes, I believe this is really needed.

I was thinking about point system in ptp some time ago, but the way you make it, it is pointless. I see many numbers, but what is the point of this system? Getting points to have... more points?

Yes, scores are a way to quantify your achievements and you can use them for comparisons between players. I believe there would be interest in gaining points, like it happens with the current stats system. I don't think that making a shop to use those points to buy features is a good idea, rivalry between players should be the only incentive.


Yeah, that was a quick approximate idea of how it would be. Anyways, if this is implemented the formulas shouldn't be public. Just to prevent players from coming up with fraudulent ways to earn more points.

About your modifications:
- I still believe securities should be penalized for killing someone away from the president. It's ok in some situations, but in most of them it's not. You can say it's a way to pressure them to head to the president
- If you don't lose points when killed, what would prevent Mr. X and his friend from making a deal to kill each other so they both earn points? And also, how would cops and civilians lose points?
- I don't think terrorists should lose more points the longer they take to kill the president. That would cause players who are concerned about their Elo to vanish from terrorist class as soon as there's a president who will presumably take long to kill (someone camping on a NRG or in a very remote area, for example). Also, if it was like that, terrorists would still be penalized if they killed the president but took too long. I don't think it's fair.
- Yeah, I agree. Civilians shouldn't get a bonus. Not because of the reason you said, but because they don't have a specific role in the gamemode and, for that reason, shouldn't be encouraged.
- I would penalize for sniper or chainsaw use, but not that much... you're suggesting 60-70% penalizations, that's a lot. It's not that easy to get a kill with those weapons.
- If points were given for giving damage, then points should be substracted for taking damage. Otherwise, what would Mr. X and his friend from damaging each other and refilling at armor, so they both earn points?



It's not that hard to script, it's some simple math and SAMP parameters that need to be checked. The real difficulty is to figure out the perfect amount of points for each achievement so they accurately quantify the effort it takes.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: MAR. on April 05, 2017, 02:38:15 pm
g. Failing to kill the president (for terrorists): -7
-1 i didn't like it
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Nazi on April 05, 2017, 03:19:50 pm
g. Failing to kill the president (for terrorists): -7
-1 i didn't like it
¿Do not you feel capable of killing the president? If you want I can show you how it's done.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Quido on April 05, 2017, 04:10:32 pm
It's an interesting idea but I see one major flaw, people farming elo. As with any elo system, your goal is to have the highest elo, to be number 1 and players will do anything to get there. Anyone who picks the terrorist class will have to approximately kill around 10 people, without dying, to balance out the 7 elo points lost for the president's survival, 10 kills in 15 minutes is not that many. The same goes for anyone who picks the police class but this time it seems there is no loss in elo for them, except for deaths, so they can farm elo even easier. Another problem is that any player can go undercover and help a friend out by pretending to fight them but in fact just die to them on purpose, 'elo boosting' as it's called in other games. I can't speak for other admins but I know I wouldn't want to spend all my time in-game watching who are suspected of 'elo boosting', especially when we're all too busy watching actual hackers ;D

All of this discourages people to play the game mode, which I assume was one of the goals for this system,  and instead shifts the focus onto gaining elo. Yes, the numbers can be changed, how elo gained can be changed but at the end of the day, gaining elo will be the target and players will want to do that in the easiest and least tiring way possible.

Also, an elo system in any game makes the people very angry, even more so than they are now. :D
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: YoMama on April 05, 2017, 05:54:06 pm
- I still believe securities should be penalized for killing someone away from the president. It's ok in some situations, but in most of them it's not. You can say it's a way to pressure them to head to the president
I'm in a Rustler and can be both far away and close while being within ~10 seconds of the President. SoLoD jumps off my car when I'm President to sacrifice himself because Terrorists only seem to know how to DM people right in front of them, instead of driving by them and continuing to follow the President. Your system doesn't award points properly.

- If you don't lose points when killed, what would prevent Mr. X and his friend from making a deal to kill each other so they both earn points? And also, how would cops and civilians lose points?
- I don't think terrorists should lose more points the longer they take to kill the president. That would cause players who are concerned about their Elo to vanish from terrorist class as soon as there's a president who will presumably take long to kill (someone camping on a NRG or in a very remote area, for example). Also, if it was like that, terrorists would still be penalized if they killed the president but took too long. I don't think it's fair.
To be honest, I just don't want people to feel that there is any penalty for dying, so they'll actually do things like bodyshield the President (something few people apart from me seem to do). Yes, maybe terrorists would leave the class, but you think they wouldn't if they knew they were about to lose 7 points?

- I would penalize for sniper or chainsaw use, but not that much... you're suggesting 60-70% penalizations, that's a lot. It's not that easy to get a kill with those weapons.
- If points were given for giving damage, then points should be substracted for taking damage. Otherwise, what would Mr. X and his friend from damaging each other and refilling at armor, so they both earn points?
You can hit people with snipers from extremely far distances and take down a lot of health, which in my opinion makes them unbalanced. Saws stop you from moving once you're being hit with one. Just the fact that they are constantly used should tell you that they give an advantage. I see snipers in close-range fights now too, which is ridiculous.

You're also right that no kill penalties mean farming is possible. I think the way to avoid this while eliminating a fear of death would be to eliminate the kill rewards, but then you begin to neuter the system.

All of this discourages people to play the game mode, which I assume was one of the goals for this system,  and instead shifts the focus onto gaining elo. Yes, the numbers can be changed, how elo gained can be changed but at the end of the day, gaining elo will be the target and players will want to do that in the easiest and least tiring way possible.
The man has a point.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Aksel on April 05, 2017, 08:47:30 pm
Elo rating system is methode for calculating the relative skill levels of players in competitive games this would work in chess and some esport games (cs:go , league of legend Overwatch ect)  it was created to make sure that players will face another team in same level skills, to make game comptitive! so everyone would have fun.

but for what will we use elo points in server? its a nice idea but scripting it would take too much énergie and time.


this elo system would work under one condition, only if server is forcing players into a class  so terrorist and cop/sec should have close elo points. and in this case Server should punish if a cop was close to a terro w/o fighting him and opposite thing
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Satvik on April 05, 2017, 08:51:52 pm
-1 we dont need it, its good as it is
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Carg on April 05, 2017, 09:09:10 pm
Yeah but why would some terrorist try to kill the pres and get 7 points when he can try killing civs & cops way faster and easier, it will just make more ppl to stop following their duty.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Faro0s on April 05, 2017, 09:22:12 pm
The idea is pretty good but I don't think it is worth of implementing it in ptp since ptp is unique in its gamemode. I will give +1 for giving it a try although it seems to be a time consuming task.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: YoMama on April 05, 2017, 10:25:04 pm
Maybe this could be reworked so it's points per class- so you get a certain amount of points for following your /duty (except Civilians and Vice). Then in /stats, you'd have a President score, a Security score, a SWAT/Police score, and a Terrorist score, all based on /duty. So based on my original post (http://jonne.be/forum/index.php?topic=1299.msg10791#msg10791):

President gets points for:
- his survival time
- if he kills attackers
- how far away the terrorists are
- winning

Security get points for:
- being near the President for a certain proportion of time
- damaging attackers while meeting the condition above
- more points the longer the President survives
- sacrificing themselves while meeting the first condition so the President survives longer

Police/SWAT get points for:
- damaging attackers anywhere
- the same points the Security get for doing what the Security do.

Terrorists get points for:
- how quickly they kill the president
- killing the president
- more individual points to those who contribute to damaging the President.

All points would be factored by the cumulative points that the opposing teams/players have.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Madman on April 06, 2017, 06:10:36 am
Pls dont ruin the gamemode.if u wanna add ths suggestion,most of ppls will be terror and all of them will just attack president so ofc he will die and the map will change sooner as ever.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: YoMama on April 06, 2017, 07:00:27 am
Pls dont ruin the gamemode.if u wanna add ths suggestion,most of ppls will be terror and all of them will just attack president so ofc he will die and the map will change sooner as ever.
I'm not sure you understand the gamemode.
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Madman on April 06, 2017, 09:13:26 am
Pls dont ruin the gamemode.if u wanna add ths suggestion,most of ppls will be terror and all of them will just attack president so ofc he will die and the map will change sooner as ever.
I'm not sure you understand the gamemode.
Stop lying,ok ?
xD.ik the gamemode well
Title: Re: Elo rating system
Post by: Jonne on April 17, 2017, 08:45:05 pm
This is an interesting idea, but I think this is a bit too extensive. I'd go for something a bit simpler, that could maybe replace the current scoring system (the scores you see when you press tab), since nobody really pays attention to those scores. Maybe in the long run we'll work something out like this, but I think it'll be closer to this suggestion (http://jonne.be/forum/index.php?topic=1309.0).