Clan members should shoot fellow members on opposing teams

[Miau]

What rules? What personal gain? You have just said yourself that there is no rule regarding this.

I guess YoMama is talking about this:

• No teamshooting / spawnkilling
- Use /colours & /duty ingame, to understand which teams are friendly. You are not allowed to help the opposing team in any way. Do not block or stun your own teammates so the other team can kill them.

If we read it literally, you can help the opposite team actively or passively. You help actively if you take actions that are detrimental for your team: for example, blocking your team's way, stunning a mate in the middle of a fight... But you can also help passively. Helping passively means helping by not taking any action. For example, you're passively helping the opposite team if you are cop looking after the president and do nothing when a terrorist, who is a friend of yours, tries to kill him.
"In any way", as literally outlined by the rules and from what I understand, includes every single possible way. So active ways would be included, but passive ways too. Unfortunately this second type is never enforced. At least not yet.

My argument is that it is futile to try and "force" clans to change their own rules about shooting between members. The whole point of clans is that a group of people have banded together so they could play and enjoy the game together.

But ok, let's assume that fellow clan members don't attack each other and ignore their duties is legal and legit. Would you mind explaining me the reason why this non-aggression policy spreads to all the regulars (in except for a bunch of weirdos like me), regardless of their clan? Why don't GgTs, RDs, PPLVs, NOs, pWns, IDFs, Rawrs, members of other clans and clan-less regulars attack any other member of this list? How many regular players are could be included in the list I just wrote? One hundred? Two? Hundreds of people ignoring each other in a server with an average of... ~30 players online?
Clans make sense, after all. Players unite, agree to protect each other and grow stronger. But I'm still wondering why you need to grow stronger if you're only willing to attack a bunch of lost newbies in a 4:1 fight...

[Vishwas]

If you guys are suggesting such rule changes which will affect major part of the server then a poll should be order,no?

IT'S NOT A RULE CHANGE!

This isn't something that needs a poll. It's obvious to anyone who doesn't benefit from clans blatantly breaking the rules that it's unfair, and it's even obvious to many people in clans. Just from looking at this topic, I haven't found anyone who is not in a clan but is against this suggestion. If there is someone, they're heavily outnumbered by other clanless regulars. There isn't any point in taking a poll on something that has a clear answer, unless you want to pretend that the results of the poll change reality.

Clans aren't really the cause, regulars don't shoot each other regardless if they have a clan or not.

Yes, clanless regulars are also guilty of this, but clans have the distinction of having "rules" against shooting each other enshrined in their clan pages on the forum. They've put written evidence that they ignore rules for their personal gain on the forum.

This discussion will never end simply because both sides have valid points.

I have yet to see a valid point from the other side. All I see are people comparing me to Lacerta for effect and pretending that this is fair because they benefit from it. Maybe they could start with this?

Someone disprove this statement:

Players on opposite teams agreeing not to kill each other is unfair, against the rules, and doesn't make sense in terms of the gamemode.

I'm waiting...

The only solution would be if clans man up just enough to assume what this game is about.

That's what I was hoping for when I started this topic- again, I apparently gave them too much credit.

Then create a poll with options like:
-Yes, this rule should be enforced
-No..

How hard that is? Why don't you want a poll?
Just because a bunch of guys want to change how PTP has been for years... It won't change lol.

[Miau]

Then create a poll with options like:
-Yes, this rule should be enforced
-No..

How hard that is? Why don't you want a poll?
Just because a bunch of guys want to change how PTP has been for years... It won't change lol.

If you guys are suggesting such rule changes which will affect major part of the server then a poll should be order,no?

Dear Vishwas,

You do realize that this is not about pleasing the majority, don't you? We know that the majority wants every to remain as it is, because, after all, it's very comfortable to become the most badass spree killer by only hunting outnumbered clueless newbies with all your friends.

This is about doing what is fair. And not only what is fair, but also what helps Plan B to become the greatest and most popular. I used to say "RQ" and laugh when me and my former VIP buddies outnumbered a clueless newbie until he had to disconnect. Now I realize that, if a part of my buddies had helped that newbie as their duty said, to fight against us, that guy would've probably enjoyed his stay in our server as much as we all did and today this great community would have one more regular, faithful user. And this isn't an isolate story that happened to me once. This happens every hour.

[Vishwas]

Then create a poll with options like:
-Yes, this rule should be enforced
-No..

How hard that is? Why don't you want a poll?
Just because a bunch of guys want to change how PTP has been for years... It won't change lol.

If you guys are suggesting such rule changes which will affect major part of the server then a poll should be order,no?

Dear Vishwas,

You do realize that this is not about pleasing the majority, don't you? We know that the majority wants every to remain as it is, because, after all, it's very comfortable to become the most badass spree killer by only hunting outnumbered clueless newbies with all your friends.

This is about doing what is fair. And not only what is fair, but also what helps Plan B to become the greatest and most popular. I used to say "RQ" and laugh when me and my former VIP buddies outnumbered a clueless newbie until he had to disconnect. Now I realize that, if a part of my buddies had helped that newbie as their duty said, to fight against us, that guy would've probably enjoyed his stay in our server as much as we all do and today this great community would have one more regular, faithful member. And this isn't an isolate story that happened to me once. This happens every hour.

Dear Mia Demens,

It's not really Fair, That I, Along with anyone I know is being asked to shoot my friend/clanmate. Just because it's fair to you doesnt mean it's actually fair. Simply clarifies in short, no need for Paras beating around the bush.

Talk about one guy, we have plenty of people who stay because of clans, have you compared them to your one guy? You can say anything you want about clans, even though you were so attached to them at some point I know you'll come up and say clans are pointless and ruining the PTP Community and gamemode. But you forget that for major part of the active regulars, clan/friends/people are the reason they play.

And I don't know why would you mention the case of being hunted by outnumbered VIPs because if this rule gets enforced or not a newbie will be hunted. So how does this really benefit a newbie?

[Crash]

Really fucked up. Both sides has really good arguments and statements.
But let's face it,let's say that won't be added as a new rule since Majority of the regulars doesn't want to see that rule never on this server.

[Miau]

Just because it's fair to you doesnt mean it's actually fair.

Of course not. If you think what I called "fair" is actually not fair, please be kind and explain me what point of what I said sounds unfair for you.

Imagine a lake with three animals: an alligator, an anaconda and a duck. The alligator and the anaconda are both powerful, and they could fight each other endlessly to become the king of the lake. In the meanwhile, the duck would live peacefully and even help the anaconda to beat up that dirty alligator, or vice-versa. Or they could simply become friends and cooperate to hunt the duck.
The anaconda and the alligator prefer the second option, why refuse an easy lunch? But our objective here is not to make only the anaconda and the alligator happy. Our objective is to make the lake a cool place to live for as many animals as possible, and that's where the first option kicks in. Now replace alligator with regular players, anaconda with more regular players, duck with newbies and lake with this server. What sounds unfair exactly? You can answer me in anaconda-alligator-duck terms if it's easier.

And I don't know why would you mention the case of being hunted by outnumbered VIPs because if this rule gets enforced or not a newbie will be hunted. So how does this really benefit a newbie?

Read the anaconda example. ^
How does this really benefit a duck?

Talk about one guy

Who talked about one guy?

And this isn't an isolate story that happened to me once. This happens every hour.

You can say anything you want about clans, even though you were do attached to them at some point I know you'll come up and say clans are pointless and running the PTP Community and gamemode.

Already discussed it.

Clans make sense, after all. Players unite, agree to protect each other and grow stronger. But I'm still wondering why you need to grow stronger if you're only willing to attack a bunch of lost newbies in a 4:1 fight...

Newbies join clans because it's the fastest way to stop being the duck of this lake and enjoy the server... Anyways, I'm not against clans, I'm against everyone making peace with everyone. It's perfectly fine with me if million clans exist, as long as they aren't used as anti-newbie armies.

[Vishwas]

Just because it's fair to you doesnt mean it's actually fair.

Of course not. If you think what I called "fair" is actually not fair, please be kind and explain me what point of what I said sounds unfair for you.

Imagine a lake with three animals: an alligator, an anaconda and a duck. The alligator and the anaconda are both powerful, and they could fight each other endlessly to become the king of the lake. In the meanwhile, the duck would live peacefully and even help the anaconda to beat up that dirty alligator, or vice-versa. Or they could simply become friends and cooperate to hunt the duck.
The anaconda and the alligator prefer the second option, why refuse an easy lunch? But our objective here is not to make only the anaconda and the alligator happy. Our objective is to make the lake a cool place to live for as many animals as possible, and that's where the first option kicks in. Now replace alligator with regular players, anaconda with more regular players, duck with newbies and lake with this server. What sounds unfair exactly? You can answer me in anaconda-alligator-duck terms if it's easier.

And I don't know why would you mention the case of being hunted by outnumbered VIPs because if this rule gets enforced or not a newbie will be hunted. So how does this really benefit a newbie?

Read the anaconda example. ^
How does this really benefit a duck?

Talk about one guy

Who talked about one guy?

And this isn't an isolate story that happened to me once. This happens every hour.

You can say anything you want about clans, even though you were do attached to them at some point I know you'll come up and say clans are pointless and running the PTP Community and gamemode.

Already discussed it.

Clans make sense, after all. Players unite, agree to protect each other and grow stronger. But I'm still wondering why you need to grow stronger if you're only willing to attack a bunch of lost newbies in a 4:1 fight...

Newbies join clans because it's the fastest way to stop being the duck of this lake and enjoy the server... Anyways, I'm not against clans, I'm against everyone making peace with everyone. It's perfectly fine with me if million clans exist, as long as they aren't used as anti-newbie armies.

Don't use examples borrowed from Jungle Book or w/e kindergarten book you're referred to here. Since you clearly can't capture the reality with your so called examples.

Back to what you said, I don't see how is your suggestion making server a cool place when you're just going against 70% of what the server wants.Again, you saying making a server a "cool" place doesn't make it actually cool. Remember making a suggestion to disable DBing just because you thought combats were OP... Was that cool according to you? If we go according to personal preferences don't know where we will end up lol Please explain how is this gonna benefit a newbie, or how you say this will prevent a newbie from RQing.

Ps: please keep it to short paragraphs, don't know who started writing long essays to highlight their English but this is a gaming forum. So end it ...

[Miau]

Since you clearly can't capture the reality with your so called examples.

Why not? It's not that clear for me

You have already accused me of:

• Having a wrong concept of what is fair and unfair.
• Using a misleading example that differs from reality.

Things you have NOT justified, argumented or elaborated:

• Why is my concept of fairness wrong?
• Why does that example differ from reality?

It's easy to simply shoot sentences at me and provide zero justification, isn't it?

[Vishwas]

Since you clearly can't capture the reality with your so called examples.

Why not? It's not that clear for me

You have already accused me of:

• Having a wrong concept of what is fair and unfair.
• Using a misleading example that differs from reality.

Things you have NOT justified, argumented or elaborated:

• Why is my concept of fairness wrong?
• Why does that example differ from reality?

It's easy to simply shoot sentences at me and provide zero justification, isn't it?

Provide explanation to what I said above, specifically this..
"Please explain how is this gonna benefit a newbie, or how you say this will prevent a newbie from RQing. "

Your example is wrong because in reality having Duty or not how is your Newbie(your so called Duck) is gonna get not eaten/killed?

This isnt gonna work out. You know this yourself by now.

You don't even think the other way around , if this ever gets applied, now most clans (including typical statswhore ones)will just divide into cops and terros and so will their clanmate but in same team. Since they can't hunt each other that's the only way they will stand by clan rules. No, don't dare say that now they will follow /duty, they will camp around armor to gain easy kills. Which is just pathetic..

[Miau]

Your example is wrong because in reality having Duty or not how is your Newbie(your so called Duck) is gonna get not eaten/killed?

I'm not saying my duck is not getting eaten. I'm saying my duck isn't going to last a single minute alive if the anaconda and the alligator work together to kill him. If the alligator and the anaconda have to worry about and fight each other, the duck is going to have a much better experience, don't you think?

[YoMama]

This isnt gonna work out. You know this yourself by now.

You don't even think the other way around , if this ever gets applied, now most clans (including typical statswhore ones)will just divide into cops and terros and so will their clanmate but in same team. Since they can't hunt each other that's the only way they will stand by clan rules. No, don't dare say that now they will follow /duty, they will camp around armor to gain easy kills. Which is just pathetic..

Bullshit. There are many players who shoot members of their own clan. If a clan plays on one team, that's fine by me (within reason). That's following the rules, and it's fair. At least then, everyone should be doing their duty instead of doing it only when certain people are their targets. You actually know that people are going to play against the opposite team.

Your hypothetical situation is also bullshit. As several people have mentioned, there hasn't always been a fucked up culture of alliances like there is now. Clan rules can change. What's really pathetic is hanging on to something as absurd as alliances between naturally opposing teams because "it's the way things are" and/or "clan rules mandate it".

[Judah]

Your example is wrong because in reality having Duty or not how is your Newbie(your so called Duck) is gonna get not eaten/killed?

The other day I was protecting a president from your clan, but you decided to kill me while still helping the president. You targeted all securities except the ones from your clan and regulars.

They did nothing while you attacked us like a sissy with your jetpack, but they sure did collaborate with you despite knowing that you were killing their team mates.

So yes they were technically teaming up with people who are fight against the newbies in their team - which I believe is against the rules. The server has basically become a clan war server where newbies don't have the right to play because they are new.

The example is pretty clear. She is talking about HOW the duck is going to be killed and who is to be directly responsible for it (who attacks and the ones who support the attacker/let it happen.)

I think you are just being selfish because clans still have the option to do what they are doing right now if they simply choose one team and follow their actual duty but newbies have no option other than quiting the server. 90% of the players take part in the shitfest at armour as cops or terrrorists. So why not join them instead of teaming up with terrorists to kill your team mates while you're playing as security?

[Rev]

Where's Lacerta when we need him! He would've solved this already by banning YoMama and probably Mia as well.

Looking at this from both perspectives, both make sense. Some are reasonable and some other are just suggesting nonsensical shananigans. While the community often asks the admins to put themselves on our shoes, I think now it'd be fair that we put on theirs. There isn't really anything they can do here. It's up to us, to you, to decide what to do.

Am saying it here: the most logical thing to do would be if clan members accept the role they have choosen and go along with it. For this I have personal experience. I would be disappointed if players who've spent years playing this, and are quite good at it, don't want to attack me. Who am I left to go against? Players that recently found the server and have little experience, if none, playing it? That doesn't represent a challenge for me. Chasing these guys down would not only be boring as heck for myself, but it'd also mess up their experience.

I've joked about pWn messing around and shooting each other but, you know what, I'm glad they do. We take it lightly but I know these guys are great at this game and to improve your skills you must fight those that are better than yourself. You don't get better by circle-jerking.

Many, countless times I have been disgusted by servers that I'd like to try out and can't do it because admins have preference with certain players. Gladly, that doesn't quite apply here to admins, but it does with VIPs and regular players and that peace treaty it has prevailed for so long now.


For those of you making suggestion about rules:
Don't waste your time thinking of rules that have no way of being placed in. As I said before, clans are way in too deep already, you could argue they are somewhat neccessary wether you like it or not, and you can't force someone to do something he doesn't want to do.

Because at the end of the day it's up to the player to decide what to do..

[Yobe]

This rule would be very hard to enforce and could cause arguments. -1

[SoLoD]

Cool story, Rev, you little bitch. It is always interesting for me to read how you pretending to be a "good guy".

SoLod thanks for Proving that u Don t give a damm on others Players opinion

I`ve met too much "your-style" trash on this server to explain again and again a very simple basic statements.

It is hilarious how nobody here understands why this suggestion and many others have 0 chance to become a solution of the problem, but instead becoming the problem on its own. Looks like another theme for solod`s 10kB essay.