Plan B
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: SoLoD on June 24, 2017, 08:19:28 am
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So, few days ago Jonne posted this
(http://i.imgur.com/9aKFsbC.png)
And i was like, well, let me just get in the server and record some stuff near armor.
But guess what? I do not need to do that. Because exactly that day some staff was recorded by Makaveli.
Their "war" vs ggt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw-JfCpP_mg)
After watching this video and from my experience of playing GM for the last 1-2 years i have to ask Jonne:
1. What exact problem do you think you solved about armor spawns?
Because, you know, i thought that armor problem for the last 3-4 years was all about regulars, that were camping there, starting mess, ignoring actual GM etc. Maybe, just maybe, there was another problem that was solved by you and your staff.
2. If problem was all about what i said, than why are you saying that it is solved. Because if you will look closer at that video, you can witness your clan member taking part in that mess. So, is it true that other admin staff do not see an "armor problem" anymore too?
3. What is a purpose of armor respawning? Because, well, regulars DO leave the armor spawn, but only to come back 30 secs later for respawned armor and hp.
4. Maybe you will accept "armor problem" and will share with me and other ptpers your thoughts about how you will fix it.
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We have multiple health and armor spawns, so if you cant go to the main armor, you can also go to the secondary armor spawns too.
I don't see anymore "armor camping" now.
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Solod right.
Armour camping still alive...
Option-We can put armour and health (or only armour) in Shop(Or something that look like room before racing) and in this area People can't Shoot each other.
Of course the place will be mark on the map...
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I don't see anymore "armor camping" now.
I always see armor camping.Many regulars are doing it.And what's the main fact? They are with double armor.
But I don't have any issues with it since its TDM.
Simply go to 2nd or 3rd armor spawn or else don't take armor :D
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1. What exact problem do you think you solved about armor spawns?
Because, you know, i thought that armor problem for the last 3-4 years was all about regulars, that were camping there, starting mess, ignoring actual GM etc. Maybe, just maybe, there was another problem that was solved by you and your staff.
2. If problem was all about what i said, than why are you saying that it is solved. Because if you will look closer at that video, you can witness your clan member taking part in that mess. So, is it true that other admin staff do not see an "armor problem" anymore too?
3. What is a purpose of armor respawning? Because, well, regulars DO leave the armor spawn, but only to come back 30 secs later for respawned armor and hp.
4. Maybe you will accept "armor problem" and will share with me and other ptpers your thoughts about how you will fix it.
To solve this issue we already have 3 Armor and Health Spawn now. I don't understand your point here.
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Why don`t you just accept the fact that we have asolutely the same situation we had before.
So, how can you actually say that it is okay? Players concentrate their efforts on spawn instead of president.
How can you say this is a common TDM (terrors vs cops?), when it is not. It is ptp and terrorist`s duty is to kill presi, not kill cops.
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Hey SoloD, let me tell you somethin:
I dont like how you re bitching and crying on the forum since few days ago
over some silly bullshit. Stop doing that attention-whore
thing, you re just making more enemies than ever.
Now concerning your topic , we got already several amours , so it
doesn't matter if some cops or terrorists camp there.
There is never a case, when players are camping in all amours at the same
time. And that's it, there is nothing more to discuss!
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We have 3 armour spawn for a reason No?
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Why don`t you just accept the fact that we have asolutely the same situation we had before.
So, how can you actually say that it is okay? Players concentrate their efforts on spawn instead of president.
How can you say this is a common TDM (terrors vs cops?), when it is not. It is ptp and terrorist`s duty is to kill presi, not kill cops.
Earlier the main issue was the trouble facing by players who were heading to armor spawn to get armor but couldn't able to take Armor-Health because of messed up situation of war (Cops vs Terros) at Armor spawns. To prevent that trouble situation we later on added more Armour spawns and Health spawns so that players who want to collect it won't face any trouble and Now we have 3 armours and health to make it more fair for everyone.
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Earlier the main issue was the trouble facing by players who were heading to armor spawn to get armor but couldn't able to take Armor-Health because of messed up situation of war (Cops vs Terros) at Armor spawns. To prevent that trouble situation we later on added more Armour spawns and Health spawns so that players who want to collect it won't face any trouble and Now we have 3 armours and health to make it more fair for everyone.
So, are you trying to say that "war (Cops vs Terros) at Armor spawns" is ok?
Are you trying to say that they (cops and terrors) should fight on armor spawn instead of fight near president?
Or are you trying to say that it is not as big problem as taking armor for some single cop or terror?
And what about the fact that you use 2nd armor spawn to take armor and... go to fight to the main armor spawn, because there will be enemies with "double armor".
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Multiple armor spawns aren't supposed to prevent armor camping, but to provide an alternative for those who don't want to get involved in endless armor fights but to directly play gamemode instead.
I don't really get why you talk about it like it was spoiling the game or something similar. Aren't the cops at armor preventing terrorists from taking the armor they would use to kill the president? Aren't the terrorists camping at armor keeping the area safe for their team mates so they can pick armor in order to succesfully do their duty? Well, "playing the gamemode" isn't only directly harming the president or killing the one who harms him. There are other secondary indirect actions, such as fighting the opposite team (for example, at armor) which are important too. Altus and I camp at armor as cops from time to time, and I can tell you some terros become so obsessed they won't do anything else but trying to wipe us out from armor. And we get the president to survive in the meanwhile. True fact. So yes, you could say camping at armor and taking part in the gamemode aren't as opposite as you think.
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So, are you trying to say that "war (Cops vs Terros) at Armor spawns" is ok?
Are you trying to say that they (cops and terrors) should fight on armor spawn instead of fight near president?
Or are you trying to say that it is not as big problem as taking armor for some single cop or terror?
And what about the fact that you use 2nd armor spawn to take armor and... go to fight to the main armor spawn, because there will be enemies with "double armor".
Now the thing is Clear to me here i.e; Your nature of finding problem in every solution. Your recent topics are examples of it. I don't think I'm qualified enough to reply on your topics. Sorry.
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Now the thing is Clear to me here i.e; Your nature of finding problem in every solution. Your recent topics are examples of it. I don't think I'm qualified enough to reply on your topics. Sorry.
I am saying what i am thinking - that permanent fights of cops vs terros on armor spawns is not the way this classes supposed to play this gamemod. Do you think i am wrong?
I don't really get why you talk about it like it was spoiling the game or something similar.
Very simple answer. I am playing this gamemod since 2006, even before PTP arrived.
I am probably the one who can tell you how it was playing it every single year.
And if "someone" prejudicedly taking my posts, starting to rage before reading them, thinking that i am just "bitching", well, beliave me, i will stay with what i am thinking.
About this "unobvious" benefits of armor camping. I know that gamemod is better without it.
And i know how this "preventing enemies to take armor" ends. It will suck you in, you will die, come to armor, fight, die again. And everyone will do the same. I am saying it because i witnessed it so many times, and i was part of it so many times, even when i just was driving through armor spawn.
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You're implying that the gamemode can be "perfect", without any flaws. If you think so, why don't you suggest a better alternative?
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You're implying that the gamemode can be "perfect", without any flaws. If you think so, why don't you suggest a better alternative?
Because Jonne and his admin staff can not accept that it is a problem and it should be solved.
And it will not be perfect at any way, because it is all about community. With normal community you can have awesome gameplay no metter what rules or features you have. But our community is not mature enough, we are not aim on what is really best for gamemod. This is why admins need to take guts in one hand, and with another hand do what is need to be done.
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You're implying that the gamemode can be "perfect", without any flaws. If you think so, why don't you suggest a better alternative?
.This is why admins need to take guts in one hand, and with another hand do what is need to be done.
Exactly. Uthar is asking what exactly do you suggest the admins(and/or players) to do about it?
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I don t see any Problem Terror vs Cop dm is also part of the Dm we have 3 Armor Spots ,so u are not forced to go to the Main Armor. Isn t it better to kill the terrora before they arrive to the Pres ? Or the cops ?
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I had the same problem years ago, until I found the other armor spawns, it was tedious. But you have to know that in this server there are clans for which there will also be wars, you have to adapt to it or better say it, fight it.
I know that I can fully understand you, but remember also that it is not just the GM as they say, this is not a gm roleplay.
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I don't see any problem here, it's useless to camp at armor because we got 3 armour spots in every map. If you don't want to be involved in any fight near the armor, you can simply go to other armor spots. And if you still think it's a problem lol, then please suggest a better alternative.
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Because Jonne and his admin staff can not accept that it is a problem and it should be solved.
And it will not be perfect at any way, because it is all about community. With normal community you can have awesome gameplay no metter what rules or features you have. But our community is not mature enough, we are not aim on what is really best for gamemod. This is why admins need to take guts in one hand, and with another hand do what is need to be done.
If you're thinking like that then everything that isn't perfect is a problem. Besides, it seems like you're the only one seeing a problem here. Blaming the community is an even more immature thing to do. It's a game, what would you expect?
Could you please clarify "and with another hand do what is need to be done"? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that
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You keep complaining about things when you yourself can't find a better solution to it. You know that there is the "armor camping" problem. Admins have tried their best to provide better solutions to the game mode. If you have any methods by which we can eliminate armor camping, then please do suggest it here.
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I am saying what i am thinking - that permanent fights of cops vs terros on armor spawns is not the way this classes supposed to play this gamemod. Do you think i am wrong?
I agree with you, Solod. I also think that they shouldn't be camping there. I am, however, not sure if readding the 'no-armour-shooting rule' would help here. You can't force anyone from those two fighting classes to follow the game mode, since, as Mia has already stated, by eliminating the opposite team members - according to their duties - they're doing exactly what they should do.
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Well Solod, you play this game for a long time doesn't mean you are right about this armor campers. We had a single armor per maps in old PTP and we have multiple armor spawns here now. As I see, one team camps at armor A, then opposite team goes to Armor B to take armor. But I think you want to mean that Armor spawns are still dangerous for newbie players? Otherwise, armor campers are not the problem for regulars since they know about other armor spawn zones.
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He wants all cops to shoot all terros and vice versa. But I think that such rule will be too hard to enforce.
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Because Jonne and his admin staff can not accept that it is a problem and it should be solved.
And it will not be perfect at any way, because it is all about community. With normal community you can have awesome gameplay no metter what rules or features you have. But our community is not mature enough, we are not aim on what is really best for gamemod. This is why admins need to take guts in one hand, and with another hand do what is need to be done.
I think you're the only one who can't accept that it is NOT a problem and nothing should be solved because it was already solved a couple of months ago
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Just play and have fun, cmon it's just a game :P
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Well, you are talking about this "1 team goes to 1 armor spawn, 2nd team goes to 2 armor spawn".
But the fact is that you use secondary armor spawns only if main armor is under opposite`s team control and you are on "war".
You concentrate too much spotlights on armor spawns when you should concentrate it on president.
But it looks like "community" do not see a problem here.
I can only say what would i do.
1. Accept the fact that it is a problem.
2. Accept that you can not solve it with moving, adding another spawns etc.
3. Accept that existence of spawns lead to a slower gameplay, with all this runs to armor after respawn, doublestacking armor, camping there etc.
4. Delete all armor and hp spawns, make system, that will not be that friendly to players about free armor points refilling.
5. Make it clear to community that you will have this system or no armor spawns at all.
What about this "new system", i have a lot of ideas. It is only up to how hard to script it.
What about making "suggestions", i`ve already said that imo this community is immature, incompetent, highly abusive and uncompetitive. And as long as admins are making "votings", i do not beliave that this community will accept anything that will make their life "harder".
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So most of the people will adjust just to make you happy? Hell no lol
Just go back to the old PTP (if it's still active) if you want to apply what you want
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So most of the people will adjust just to make you happy? Hell no lol
Just go back to the old PTP (if it's still active) if you want to apply what you want
1+
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Multiple spawns sort of solved the problem of one team monopolizing the armor/health. I agree that armor camping kinda wrecks the gamemode- it's always painful to look at the map and see more blue and red blips at the armor spawns than near the President. Yes, the server has a TDM aspect. However, it's not the same boring TDM shit that makes most other servers unremarkable. The point is to focus the game around the President, not around Terrorists vs. Police. The President element of the gamemode is unique and far more fun than simple Blue vs. Red.
@Mia and everyone else who thinks that armorcamping is the same as protecting: there are often so many of you at armor that terrorists don't even need armor to kill the President. You're not really protecting him, you're just diverting people who also don't want to chase the President.
I don't think this can be solved with rules or scripts. It's a culture problem. Most regulars seem to be concerned with stats and clans, not the truly challenging and fun stuff like chasing someone who is nearly impossible to catch, trying to keep a total dipshit President alive or coming up with new tricks to use against friends on the opposite side (not coincidentally, these things sound like playing the gamemode, not the usual tribal warfare). More people need to remember what brought them to this community in the first place.
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Multiple spawns sort of solved the problem of one team monopolizing the armor/health. I agree that armor camping kinda wrecks the gamemode- it's always painful to look at the map and see more blue and red blips at the armor spawns than near the President. Yes, the server has a TDM aspect. However, it's not the same boring TDM shit that makes most other servers unremarkable. The point is to focus the game around the President, not around Terrorists vs. Police. The President element of the gamemode is unique and far more fun than simple Blue vs. Red.
@Mia and everyone else who thinks that armorcamping is the same as protecting: there are often so many of you at armor that terrorists don't even need armor to kill the President. You're not really protecting him, you're just diverting people who also don't want to chase the President.
I don't think this can be solved with rules or scripts. It's a culture problem. Most regulars seem to be concerned with stats and clans, not the truly challenging and fun stuff like chasing someone who is nearly impossible to catch, trying to keep a total dipshit President alive or coming up with new tricks to use against friends on the opposite side (not coincidentally, these things sound like playing the gamemode, not the usual tribal warfare). More people need to remember what brought them to this community in the first place.
give this man a cookie
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Well, looks like some ptpers cant just focus on what i am posting, and just focusing on my name.
This bullshit is NOT my problem because i play alone. So, it is not about "make me happy".
Another simple example about your "solved problem".
Chiliad map. We all understand that there must be some logic how spawns are located around the map.
You are adding more spawns, you were thinking where to put them. So, main armor spawn is where it always was. So, you think it is right place for it.
But it is just next to the bridge, it is literally in the center of the map. My logic tells me that armor spawns must be located on perimeter of the map, so you need time to take it. But if it is in the center - you will anyway take it because bridge is the only way to go to pres. And when terrors are dominating, and you are security, you just can not pass this fucking spot. And you again pointing attention on armor spawn instead of president.
About what Yomama said, and what i said before, you CAN change system to point attention on president AND at the same time solve this problem.
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Unreadable wall of cry`n`bullshit. :'(
True, its a bullshit thread.
When you actually can go to 2nd/3rd even 4th(NSA) armor spawn, still you want the main armor spawn free of Cops/Terrors.
It seems like you are lazy to go at other spawns.
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About what Yomama said, and what i said before, you CAN change system to point attention on president AND at the same time solve this problem.
Please elaborate
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Unreadable wall of cry`n`bullshit. :'(
True, its a bullshit thread.
When you actually can go to 2nd/3rd even 4th(NSA) armor spawn, still you want the main armor spawn free of Cops/Terrors.
It seems like you are lazy to go at other spawns.
It seems that you are reading text from left top corner to bottom right one.
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About what Yomama said, and what i said before, you CAN change system to point attention on president AND at the same time solve this problem.
Please elaborate
For a start, changing the scoring system so it's more focused on the GM (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=1309) would be a step. Giving the president more gameplay options that he should have had anyway (like flying planes) would be another. Clans focusing on playing the GM, rather than tribal warfare would be a huge improvement. Many of our regulars are in clans that emphasize clan TDM bullshit over the GM, which sets the tone for newbies and makes it boring for those of us who don't give a shit about petty fights and want to play the game (if they aren't in a clan, they're often peripherally involved with them and/or go for tribal warfare bullshit of their own). The point is, it's possible if the players here realize that it is a lot more fun when people largely ignore the nicks of the people that they're fighting and play the GM.
Unreadable wall of cry`n`bullshit. :'(
True, its a bullshit thread.
When you actually can go to 2nd/3rd even 4th(NSA) armor spawn, still you want the main armor spawn free of Cops/Terrors.
It seems like you are lazy to go at other spawns.
You and many other people are I think missing SoLoD's point (correct me if I'm wrong, SoLoD)- it's not really about the armor as much as it is about the fact that people use it as a TDM zone instead of playing the game. It's not about not being able to get armor (like me and many others, he often doesn't get it anyway), it's about the fact that the armor spawns make it really easy for people to avoid playing the GM by getting sucked into the bullshit that goes on there. When I get armor, I check to see if there's no one there, then head over, grab my armor, and whether or not someone starts attacking me, I'm gone and after the president. My focus is on the GM, not fighting over a armor pickup. In contrast, it seems like most of our regulars go to armor and turn it into a bad game of king of the hill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_Hill_(game)) while never even going near the president.
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I have carefully read the whole topic... And it actually looks like there is only a shade of the problem. You ask to abstract from your nickname, SoLoD (Well, looks like some ptpers cant just focus on what i am posting, and just focusing on my name.), but it is impossible due to your manner of holding a discussion, and this makes this topic totally inconstructive. I'll explain why.
You start the topic with blaming Jonne. He explained you how, he thinks, he solved this problem, but in your first post you simply negate it and ask your question again. Your argument is: "I am playing this gamemod since 2006, even before PTP arrived. (...) I know that gamemod is better without it (https://pastebin.com/eGiV16qD)". Instead of trying to prove your words, you are trying to convince everyone, to make them blindly believe you there is a problem ("Why don`t you just accept the fact that we have asolutely the same situation we had before"). It looks more like a propaganda and demagougery rather than an actual attempt to delineate and solve anything. In the meantime, when you are directly asked to elaborate your solutions, you remain silent.
As for the "problem" itself. It was an actual problem on Tenshi's PTP, where we had a single armour spawn per each map. When the player count was peaking, it was nearly impossible to get armour for me and Litteratus. Hordes of civilians camping there and throwing the grenades all around or cops and terrorists forces fighting (or peacefully staying together), but forgetting their emnity when me and Litt appeared at the horizon and focusing us, - that was a real problem, completely invisible for the regulars though, including you. Tenshi and Lacerta have made a first, lazy and miserable attempt to solve it by criminalizing armour spawn fights. It looked like a really good solution at first glance, yet we all know what had it lead to: constant abuse, unfair bans for breaking imaginary rules and even more chaos.
In turn, multiple armour spawns were the first thing that utterly distinguished Jonne's server from Tenshi's. At first I was unsure if it helps - due to the reasons you, SoLoD, have stated now! - but when I played the game for a while, I saw with my own eyes that the armour problem was solved by this addition. That's what Jonne was talking about, and that's what was the real problem; what you're trying to point out now is only a 'historical' outcome of that problem.
In the same time, you and YoMama are completely right about the cultural issues. Indeed, PlanB players culture level is very low - but it is way bigger than it was on Tenshi's server. The attitude of the Staff Team, the attention to players' needs and demands, - that's what has mostly increased it. It is still extremely far from perfect, but the progress is seen all around. But those cultural issues cannot be solved with adding new laws. It simply doesn't work this way, it only gives birth to more severe resistance. Haven't Tenshi's and Lacerta's actions proved it clear enough? There is no way to change it without the absolute majority of the players willing it, which is not present here. It's the same as if we started a topic about the eternal trash-talking in the chat. You might have called it an unsolvable problem too - and you would have been right.
I don't find armour spawn fighting a big issue. Yes, it's very common here, but I don't really see actual violation of the gamemode. President is always having hard times (unless he is a regular with his dozen of friends), but the players from the "good" team are also tending to concentrate near him. In the end, like it has already been said, armour fights indirectly impact on the gamemode as well. If you don't want to take part in armour fights, you don't have to do it: all of the armour spawns together are never occupied by your enemies. That's the biggest difference from the Tenshi's PTP related to armour spawns, and that's why the problem is mainly cosidered to be solved.
Also, I doubt that any changes to the score gaining system would positively impact on "armour spawn fighting culture" and playing the gamemode. Once again it would lead to trying to prove each others who is better and tougher - that's the final goal of any score system. Maybe if stats were completely removed, it would help, but I think it should be discussed out of this topic already.
Summarizing. SoLoD, you claim that the problem exists without giving any actual proofs. When others say that you are wrong, you simply negate it. When you are asked to elaborate your solultion, you don't reply. That's why I think that this topic is totally unconstructive and should be closed and forgotten for good. Instead, if you have any actual ideas or suggestion that would solve anything you consider to be a problem, feel free to start a topic on the Suggestions board. It won't be ignored, it will be discussed like any sane topic. Probably this way you would bring any positive changes, but the topics such as this one only rend the air. Don't act like the Russian politicians.
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You and many other people are I think missing SoLoD's point (correct me if I'm wrong, SoLoD)
As i said before, and as you just said, it is not about "armor". It is all about community.
Just a simple example. Fallout online.
There was a simple idea to take fallout 2 gameplay and put it to online.
There were no rules to limit gamemod. And it was ok. Because players were doing everything to play exact gamemod.
And then another type of players arrived. They were killing each other inside first location, they were killing all quest bots. It was the way they "played" gamemod.
And the only way for admins to solve this situation was adding a shit-ton of harsh rules.
And now you are talking about "bad" Tenshi? He did it in a right way. And of course he was not supported by our "second-type" community.
And what are you doing? You are adding more spawns? You are, lets say, adding "more game bots and locations so when 2nd-player-type is doing bullshit on one part of the map, 1st-player-type can play exact gamemod on another part"?
That is why you make soft walls in hospitals and not let your patients to kill each other.
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There are no strict regulations on how to play the gamemode. Ofcourse, everything revolves around the president but that doesn't mean you are obliged to focus on that. Everyone can play the game in their own way. Furthermore, if you enforce harsh rules (Like in your Fallout example), you will just filter out certain players with a certain playstyle. This is exactly what happened in the old PTP: Harsh rules were enforced and so a ton of regulars were banned from the game. I don't think we want that.
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This thread is useless, its just that Solod wants attention :(
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I don't think we want that.
Of course we do not want that. We do not want to be banned for playing in armor spawn, so we were pushed to play all around the map. We want to play inside armor spawns without any consequences.
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I don't think we want that.
Of course we do not want that. We do not want to be banned for playing in armor spawn, so we were pushed to play all around the map. We want to play inside armor spawns without any consequences.
We don't like harsh rules that aren't necessary. Besides, we gets a lot smaller if half of the community is being banned for armor fighting
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I agree with Altus (http://i.imgur.com/pozOKFs.gif)
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This is bullshit, SoLoD stop seeking attention.
We all have shifted here because of a similar problem so making it complicated is useless. There are multiple armor spots for a reason and the reason is that when a player wishes to take armor, he/she must not be forced to involve in a war. And I think this system is going very well. I don't really get the idea of arguing here even after getting some replies. It is clear that, there is nothing wrong with current system.