Rules and admins

[Crash]

How come you guys are discussing a fucking video game with such attitude,you must chill out,take a deep breath @essay squad.

[Alcor]

just a short comment passing through

[Magic]

How come you guys are discussing a fucking video game with such attitude,you must chill out,take a deep breath @essay squad.

+1

[Shawkhawk did nothing wrong!]

WTF IS THIS? FUCKING ESSAY COMPETITION?
You can find all your answers for this topic if you read atlus's signature. you know what I'm saying?

[Shark_The_Helicopter]

There is nothing wrong with detailed posts.

[AruN.]

1. Doesn't have a registered account.

2. Whining about stats.

You must be the 'Best Statswhore of PTP' ever. 

May the best essay win!

#NotPartOfEssaySquad #Peace

[Faro0s]

1. Doesn't have a registered account.

2. Whining about stats.

You must be the 'Best Statswhore of PTP' ever. 

May the best essay win!

#NotPartOfEssaySquad #Peace

I don’t think being registered or not makes any difference lol, he is complaining about the system and staff, being registered or not doesn’t matter, will be punished equally.
Not best essay. Muahahah

[Jonne]

First of all I'd like to thank you for making this topic. It's always interesting for me (and I imagine for all of the staff and players), to see our actions from a different perspective, and the reasons people might think they're wrong. I encourage this type of discussion, so we can learn from these other perspectives and keep on improving the server.

At this point i want you to look at the rules and realise: there are no rules to protect gamemode and players from admins. And some "theoretical" retarded admin is a very "unwanted situation" for gamemode and players.

You do have a point there, it's not formally written down anywhere that you have the right to make a report against an admin, but it's also not formally written down anywhere that you do not have the right to report an admin. To clear this up: yes, you have the right to make a report against an admin, and you have the guarantuee that a level 5 will look into the issue. There have been reports against admins in the past, and in cases it was proven to be abuse, admins have been warned and even punished for it. Since this issue was never brought up, I thought it was generally known you could make a report against an admin. I also stated that in the topic you mention later:

Abuse was also a problem in PTP, but in this server, we will not tolerate any abuse. If you have any reports on staff members, they won't just be removed, we will look into it and investigate it. We won't promote people to admins just because they're friends of us. We'll do it like we did before, admins can suggest people, level 5's will have the final decision. This is how we always got the most capable people to be admins, and we'll keep it like this.

Anyway, we will make this more clear in the report section, so people are aware of this.

Now lets make an inspection on our rules. Inspection, that probably was never done by admins.

We discussed about the rules when we started this server. Some rules got a little more clarification, other rules were removed, but most rules were kept the same as in the old PTP server, as we assumed most people knew how the rules worked, and what every rules stands for. When we get complaints or suggestions about certain rules, we look into them and adjust them accordingly. When you have a suggestion about a rule, or a way to improve it or just want to change a rule, you're always welcome to make a topic in the suggestions section. I know some rules have lost their meaning with the updates that have been introduced, and the rules should have been adjusted accordingly. So, it's good you mention this, so we can review and update the rules to match with the updates we've made along the road, and make sure the rules are the same ingame, on the forums, and on the website.

   Of course we will start from my favorite rule - rule number 15. Security and their "duty". Lets check it "part after part".
   1. You need to stay close to him. - What a beautiful useless word, "close". Big, small, far away, close. All this words are meaningless without measure. If you are saying "close", you need to say what do you mean by it - 1, 10, 100, 1000 meters. And if you dont (and WE DONT), admins will handle it like they want.
   And at this point rule is becoming a useless shit. Imagine for a second that we have only one rule - "Not doing bad things on the server". Without explanations. And the only way to figure out what does that mean, "bad things", is when admin will punish you and say, "i think that you just did a bad thing".
   So, it is all about every single admin to decide if you are "close enough". And we all know that this admin`s measure of "close enough" will quickly go down if he will not "like" you.
   In this two topics i will show you that two different admins can have totally opposite opinions about same situation. Which is totally unacceptable. Rules MUST exclude any possibility of free interpretation by admins. Rules MUST provide guarantees to players that there is no place for bias. Punishment only for breaking the rules, not for breaking "admin`s interpretation of rules".

   It is obvious, that in this situation, when admin is doing whatever he wants with a rule, manipulating with it, he puts himself above this rule and rules at all.
   At this point you can not say the rules are protecting you from admins. You can not say that admins have any respect to this rules (the only way to respect rules is to place yourself under this rules). And if admin do not respect rules - he do not respect players. Because for ptp admins rules are something that staying between admins and players, not above players AND admins.

   But do you know what is even more dangerous? When someone who is a main admin here spreading this lie and actually beliave it:
   
   Because they are not the same for everyone. I CAN NOT manipulate with YOUR rules. While every single admin is doing it. Every single time admin is punishing someone for breaking "this type of rule", when you can not use this rule without your own interpretation of it, it is nothing but abuse of this rule, no metter what a situation is (if we do beliave your words abour "rules above everyone").
   But if you want to stay with this your words about "rules are the same for everyone", then you need to explain why admins are twisting it every single time they are using them?

   2. Securities should protect the president to the best of their abilities. Another brilliant example of useless rule. "Doing their best". What does that mean? Do they, admins, thinking that they know us better than we do? Do they have extraordinary "game sense" to understand if you are doing "your best"?
   I can give you a very simple example. Red country map. When the round begins and newbie president is running in the spawn area, i am moving to the closest bridge to shoot terrors to slow them down. And receiving that "do your duty" messages. Am i close enough to president? I think yes, because i do not let terrors to attack president, and when i will die - i will respawn just near president. Am i "closer" to a president than terrors? Yes, i am, because i stay between terrors and president.
   Am i doing "my best" by fighting terrors when other securities are running around president at the spawn?
   Now look at this topic: https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=1797.0
   It is about some mod "Stephanie". What i have learned about him: he has 0 (zero, none) ptp experience (and it is not strange for me, how you can get one if the only thing you are doing is staying at civ spawn with chainsaw). After i`ve watched a couple of his duels, i realised that he has zero samp skills. NONE FUCKING SKILLS.
   And now a very simple question to everyone: do not want this piece of no-skill trash to judge you? Do you want him to punish you for "not doing your best" and for not playing "gamemode"? I do not want. And i even do not want to know how did he became an admin.

   3. Your duty is to protect president at all cost. - And another one. Useless ammount of words. "At all cost". One more chance for admin to discuss if i "did my best".

   4. Unless he gives you another order. - Another order? I do not need any orders to play PTP. When someone like Yomama (president) says that i am doing good as security, and at the same time i am receiving "do your duty shit", i am starting to think that admins turning this "do what president wants" to "do what admin wants".
   When president is flying in the helicopter all around the map, i will not sit in his fucking helicopter. I will use rustler and i will not even fly "close" to him. Because i know that a terrorist with a rustler can kill his helicopter way before i will be able to crash his rustler. And i do not need "order" to stay "not close". I will fly above the "rustlers spawn area". Because it IS the best way to protect the president.
   When president is camping somewhere, probably i will not be "close" to him and i will not sitting on his head. I will be "somewehere else", where i can do "my duty" in a better way, prevent terrorists from killing president in 1 second with shotguns and receiving an idiotic "do your duty spam" from some retard.
   If while i am protecting the president i need to jump into a fight and give president few seconds to run away from this fight, and after i am "stuck" in this fight for 1, 2 or even 3 minutes, and the president is already "on another part of the map", and "/duty" spam and reports are falling on my head, tell me, is it my /duty as security to explain it to every single retarded admin?

   So, this "security duty" rule, the same rule you keep punishing people for, has not a single clear direct statement to follow as a security, and the only thing you, hypocrite admins, are doing, is twisting this poor weak useless rule like you want. And at the same time you dare to teach anyone how to play this gamemode?

   Once again, "Every single time admin is punishing someone for breaking this rule, it is nothing but abuse and insinuation, because this rule has not a single direct statement that can be broken by someone who can not freely interpret this rule (non-admin player)".

That's a good point, and I agree we should do something about the security rule. Now, from the moment we've started this server, we've been trying to find ways to make the rules more clear, and limit the amount of "grey zones" the rule has and thus limit the amount of admin involvement, exactly to prevent these kind of situations where admins have different interpretations of rules and actions. So, we've been looking for systems that prevent the rules to be broken at all, instead of an admin having to deal with it. A lot of updates and systems we've implemented are focused on this. About 50 percent of the reports we got on the old PTP had to do with teamkilling and spawnkilling. For teamkilling, we've implemented a couple of solutions, so it would become impossible to teamkill in most situations. For example, we added protection to vehicles, so they couldn't be damaged by members of the same team anymore, which was the main complaint about teamkilling. So, the ways in which you can teamkill have been greatly reduced, and the amount of reports we get on teamkilling have been reduced to a minimum. For the same reason, we've also implemented and adapted the spawnzone system, so the system could take care of this on it's own, without any admin involvement. I understand it's not completely prevented (there are still a couple of bugs we have to fix), and the rules should be adapted to reflect the changes we made to it, but comparing the amount of reports for spawnkilling now and in the old PTP, I think we've made good progress on this. Same goes for bug abusing, there we made a system that automatically prevents C-bugging and 2-shooting, so no more admin involvement is necessary. A lot of map glitches have also been fixed by putting objects so you can't glitch into it anymore. For death evasion we've recently introduced a new system too, so it would become impossible to evade death in most cases instead of punishing for it afterwards.

What I want to show you with this, is that we're constantly working on improving the server, trying to reduce the "grey zones" in rules which are up for interpretation and limit the admin involvement that comes with it, or simply preventing the rule to be broken at all if there's a possibility to do that. This is an effort we'll keep working on, and the duty rule is definitely something we should look into. As you pointed out, there's a lot of "grey zone" in that rule that's up for interpretation. That's also why the punishments for this rule are very low, mostly the furthest we'll go is reclassing or jailing the security who's not following his duty, but most of the time we'll keep it to warnings only (the pop up boxes in the middle of the screen). Now, how I usually respond to a report about a security not doing duty is, I'll observe him for an extended period of time, mostly an average of around 5 minutes. I'll usually check what he's doing now, and wait at least until he gets killed and respawned (or any respawn, for example when there's a new president), to see what he does after he respawns. Sometimes they'll go straight back to the place they died, to take revenge on their killer, that's when I'd give them a warning (more of a reminder to keep doing their duty and protect the president). If they'd keep doing the same thing over and over again, with no regard to the president, eventually I'd reclass them. Sometimes they'll respawn with the president, and take off in another direction, but they could be going for armour or getting a heli or something, or just go after terros. Depending on the situation and what happens next, that will decide if they get a warning or not. There's a lot of different situations and factors to take into account on this, so mostly I'll take a lot of time to judge if someone is doing their duty or not. Sometimes I'd also give warnings a little earlier, like when they finished a fight with a terro away from the president, but that serves more of a reminder to keep doing their duty. I understand getting these warnings might be frustrating, and might be taken as a 'punishment' instead of more of a 'reminder' function it was intented to. And yes, sometimes I or other admins misjudge a situation, and we might warn a player that is doing his duty. Given the nature of this rule, there's a lot of room for interpretation, and an admin might sometimes interpret a situation differently than a player does, leading to these kind of conflicts. There's also the aspect, especially for newer admins and mods, that they're under a lot of pressure (people often complain about this rule in the mainchat, VIP chat or through PMs) from other players, and might take a decision too soon with incomplete information.

Now, I've thought about how we could make this rule better and solve this problem, but for the moment I do not know what the best solution would be. We could simply remove the rule, but I do not know if that would benefit the server. We could define the rule better, but I don't think any definition would completely cover this rule without leaving a grey zone. We could also make a system for this, but for the moment I can't think of a system that would solve this rule. So, if you (or anyone else) have an idea or suggestion on how to solve this, or prefer any of the mentioned solutions, I'll be happy to hear it.

   Rule number 1. No hacking/cheating.
   As i`ve mentioned before, i have a huge distrust of "some admin"`s ability to judge what is hack/cheat and what is not.
   Example is all about that retard "gotemgt". After i clearly have shown you that he is switching "hp lock" shit, all you said was: "we will keep an eye on him".
   And after that he keeps doing it time after time. When you are doing db damage to him like to every player, and after 10 seconds he is starting to run all over the fight with 30 hp and you are no longer can do a single point of damage even to his back with drive-by (and not only you), and you know that his ping is still the same, and you know that he is the only person on the server that do not get damage, and you know that you can do damage even to someone with ping that is 3 times bigger.
   Well, as i said, i have huge distrust on our admins and their ability to "add 1 to 1".

It's hard if not impossible to tell if someone is using health hacks or not just based on a video. There are a lot of other factors influencing this, and just a video is too little information. We need to be able to test if he's synced or not, and we can't run tests or know if he was losing packets at that moment after the facts. Ping has nothing to do with being desynced or not, you can have a perfectly fine ping and get desynced, and you can have a huge ping and not be desynced. A better indicator of this would be packetloss.

   Rule number 2. No bug abusing.
   If you will look close enough at the picture of the rules, you will see a very very weak attempt of our admins to divide all bugs to "good ones" and "bad ones". But again, the same shit - what is the point to make this "good/bad bugs" rule, if you do not cover ALL bugs. And the answer is the same - to let admins judge if your bug is "good" or "bad" by themselfs.
   But the funniest thing is that there is NO DEFINITION of what a bug is. And when you are trying to resctrict something, but not even giving a definition of it, we all know what is gonna happen.
   Again, what if one day they will say that RADding is a bug too? Because GTA SA developers did not made it on purpose, so you CAN (if you want) to call it "bug". Oh wait, most of admins even do not know what a "RADding" is (and i am not even talking about something like taxi boost). But they WILL define it as a bug or not a bug by themselfs, because this is how this rule looks like.

I think it's very clearly stated which bugs we will punish for. We added the ones under "allowed bugs" after there was some confusion about it, so we thought it was better to add them there. But, any bug that's not explicitly forbidden, is allowed. I don't think a list of all different SAMP bugs and whether they are allowed or not would be helpful. I also don't think anyone was punished for bugs that aren't listed there. If you think it's unclear or have a better way to formulate this rule, please let us know. Or if we forgot to add a bug to the list that's forbidden in the server, also let us know so we can add it. And no, I do not know what RADding is, but I always want to learn, so I'd appreciate if you'd explain me. If there's new bugs we do not know about and forbid, we'll communicate that decision clearly and make sure everyone knows about the new rule before we start punishing for it.

[Jonne]

   Rule number 3. No death evasion by any means or ways.
   YAY. What we have got here? ANOTHER ONE. "Any means or ways". Very personal rule for me, since 5 years ago some retarded admin aka great khali decided that i "evaded death", and banned me for a very very long time. Just because he did not liked me.
   But lets get back to the rule. I want to look at this rule and see exactly what i want to see when i am looking at every single rule: what can i do and what i can not do. And i do NOT see it. If i am surrounded by 10 enemies, can i spam enter/exit a car to "avoid death" (btw, it is a samp bug too, another common bug to previous rule)? Hmmm. Lets see what our rule can say about it. Hmmm. Nothing. Hmmm. But it is definitely "evading a death". Hmmm. But everyone is doing it. Hmmm. But who am i to know WHAT A RANDOM ADMIN THINKS ABOUT IT???

You've got a point here, and that's why we introduced the actor system recently, to limit the amount of situations you can deathevade in. It's not perfect and it won't cover all of the situations, but I think it will prevent a big chunk of the death evasions. Spamming the enter/exit button we do not currently see as death evading, and I don't think anyone was punished for it, but there was a suggestion to fix it (scriptwise, so we wouldn't have to punish for it).

   Rule number 5. No teamshooting/spawnkilling.
   Another YAY. And another portion of shit for admins. Do you remember this one: https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=1797.0 ? Retarded admin that was staying at civil spawn and killing civils with chainsaw? (What a worthy attitude for a ptp admin by the way.)  Very specific way for some rookie after he is joining the server to take a taste what this server is all about. When JHON (i will call you JHON, ok, Jonne? Do not know why i like this word) said that his perfect antispawnkilling system is WORKING WELL, but at the same time his own admins were using BUG to get stats and to break the very simple rule to NOT SPAWNKILLING (hmm, interesting, can you call it bug abusing of that "working" antispawnkill system? Hmm, hmm, probably not, at least they paid for chainsaw).
   Ok, so, the system was not working, admins (and some vips) were abusing bug (when they were killing people UNDER spawn protection), and at the same time they were BREAKING fucking simple RULE (without consequences ofc), JHON was swearing me that it is WORKING FINE, random samp`ers were leaving after witnessing this kind of attitude from every single regular.
   WOW. Just WOW. And i am reminding you that the rule at that time was: NOT TO KILL AT SPAWN WITHOUT ANY CONDITIONS. And now (of course there did not made any change to the rules even after MONTHS) you can take a look at the rules IN-GAME and you will see only this: "NO TEAMSHOOTING/SPAWNKILLING". So, it was not only bug abusing, they were breaking this rule too.
   Forum is only an addition to the server. Server is a main place to declare SERVER rules. Now, you are posting that your rule is: NO SPAWNKILLING. At the same time you do not even mention on the server about exceptions, THAT ARE ALREADY EXISTING IN YOUR FUCKING FORUM VERSION OF YOUR FUCKING SERVER RULES. How stupid is that?
   
   But lets back to our today`s situation. What a carnival of twisted mind`s flow. First you are saying that everything is working fine, then you are understanding that it is not fine (and vips/admins can abuse your bugs and they are doing it), then you are "sorry" about your "perfect system" turning to "unperfect", then you are still do nothing and NOT PUNISHING vips and admins. AND THEY STILL CAN KILL ANYONE WHILE BEING UNDER SPAWN PROTECTION, EVEN WHEN YOU, AND I QUOTE: "CAN NOT DO DAMAGE BEFORE LEAVING THE SPAWN".
   Let me explain it one more time (and you can enter the server like i did yesterday and check it by yourself). Vips and admins still abusing a bug when they CAN do damage before THEY left their spawn (so, this is a bug abusing, and it is not GTA SA or SAMP bug, it is YOUR OWN BUG. I guess this bug was not a purpose of making your "antispawnkill" system, so it is THAT BAD BUG THAT IS NOT ALLOWED). YOUR IMMORTAL ADMINS ARE ABUSING A BUG TO KILL PEOPLE. They are abusing a bug, which SHOULD BE PROHIBITED by your "antispawnkill system", and not getting any sort of punishment. Typical JHON.
   Now, when you under spawn protection, every time you attack, you are receiving message that YOUR ATTACKS ARE NOT DOING DAMAGE. And YOUR FUCKING ADMINS ARE DOING DAMAGE BY ABUSING A BUG. YOUR BUG.
   But they are not only breaking rule number 2 (bug abusing). They are breaking server rule: "NO SPAWNKILLING". AND THERE IS NO CONDITIONS FOR THIS RULE ON THE SERVER. No spawnkilling means you can not kill someone who is on the spawn and they can not kill you when you are on the spawn. BUT THEY KILLING PEOPLE ON THE SPAWN, WHEN THE ONLY THING YOUR RULE IS SAYING IS: NO SPAWNKILLING.

   Addition to this rule (and you can not see any word about it on the server) is "do not help opposite in any way, do not stun your teammates so other team kill him".
   Beautiful rule. The only fact that it exists telling me everything i need to know about this community. When some civilian admin is killing secirity, and another admin (playing as security) is not doing a shit while some civ is running near president and killing secs, and after you are reporting him he is looking at his own report and saying "HMMMM, OKAY".
   OKAY.

I agree that's not an attitude I'd like to see from our staff team, they should be examples to the rest of the community. On the other hand, I also think it's unrealistic to expect them to be professionnal at all times and not make any mistakes ever. Our staff team simply aren't professionnals, they don't get paid to do any of this, they're simply volunteers who are spending part of their free time keeping the server free of hackers and rulebreakers.

In your case you mention, the system was working. You left the spawnzone, and you should have gotten a message that your spawn protection ran out. At that point he was allowed to kill you. I'll agree though that the rules might not be that clear, and we'll work on getting them the same here, ingame and on the website, so it's clear to everyone what the rules are and how they work.

I'm not exactly sure where you get this quote from: "CAN NOT DO DAMAGE BEFORE LEAVING THE SPAWN", but that's not exactly how it works. Only bullets are disabled while you're under spawn protection as civilian. Other weapons (non-bullet, including chainsaws, dildos, fists, grenades, ...) still work, as there's no way in SAMP to 'disable' their damage. For other classes all weapons work under spawn protection. We've added this as a result of this suggestion: https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=1281.0 When you fire your weapon, you receive this message: "[WARNING] You are still under spawn protection, your bullets will not have any effect until you leave your spawn zone." If you read this carefully, you'll see that it only mentions bullets, not anything else. So, nobody's abusing any bugs, it works as it's supposed to work.

You have a point about the teamkilling rule you mention, that one is formulated pretty vague. We adapted those rules after we got some reports of people who were chainsawing or spraying their teammates, so someone of the opposite team could kill them. That's why that section was added, and that's what it's aimed at preventing mostly.

   But the best part of this rule (and many other rules) is that it mainly protects admins only. When you are reporting someone for breaking it, admin is coming after 30 sec, see nothing, do nothing. But when someone is doing it against admin.... Mmmm. It is working. Very nice to have rules that always protecting admins, and when you are not admin, you need video and other "evidences" to prove your point.

I think it's only logical it works like that. An admin needs to see someone breaking the rules before they can take action. If you hack in front of an admin, you'll be banned immediatly. If you hack in front of another player, you'll need to wait until the admin checks your report before they'll get banned. I don't see another way how this would work, or we'd have to either blindly trust that every single report is correct, or make everyone admin...

   But not always. A simple example is when i (security) was fighting with Yash, and when he went low on hp, his fellow buddy, some retart from ggt clan, started to ram me while being a cop. In front of Yash. Without any consequences of course.

If you see this, please make a report on the forums so we can look into this. Then we can check the logs to the best of our abilities to see if it matches up with your story, and take action if needed.

   Rule number 8. No map change forcing.
   I am kinda bored but it is again THAT rule when admin will judge you if you die "to force a map" or "not".
   But at least they`ve listed ALL "bad" situations. Still, a very wide field for mind to work with that "suiciding". Too wide for a server full of retards.

Yes, this rule relies on the interpretation of the admin, and if we punish for it, it's mostly because we know it's intentional (people saying flat out they're going to change the map). We disabled /kill for presidents to make this less common, but I'm not sure how we could enhance this rule.

   Rule number 9. No nicks faking. (no faking admins nicks).
   Just a picture. PICTURE
   Pointing your attention on: "admins knowing their rules", "thinking first, then doing something", "taking responsibility AKA ignoring" etc.

Yes, we should work on clarifying that as well since not every admin is on the same page for this.

   Rule number 12. Protecting team is not allowed to jack the president.
   Someone is ninjajacking and killing president, you are reporting, no response. Like, never. But hey, still works pretty good if president is an admin, isn`t it?

We've made a system to prevent this in most cases, but we can't prevent it in all cases. Some people with worse connections are still able to get through it from time to time. And as I said before, it's hard for us to go back in the past and see what happened before the report was made.

   Rule number 13. No advertising other server.
   So, if i will pm someone ip of a, hmm, stunting server, i will be banned. Very "openminded" rule. I like it. DO NOT LET PTPERS TO FIND A LIFE OUTSIDE THE PTP.

You're allowed to share IPs of other servers in PM. Of course, if someone starts spamming advertisements for another server to everyone in PTP, then they'll get banned.

But lets see how admins are dealing with rules on some concret examples.
   Lets start from this topic: https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=2004.0

   First of all, i am pointing your attention that it took ~10 days for admins to deal with that topic. And the topic is all about 40 seconds long video. So, i guess, they were examining that video frame by frame.
   Now, look at that video and tell me what do you see? I can tell you what do I see there. Two securities on a sanchez with busted wheels are trying to move to the president when some terror is arriving to them. So, since we all know what is gonna happen when you are about to leave someone with sniper rifle behind you while driving a bike with busted wheels, securities killed that terrorist.
   So, that particular retarded pplv kid ragequit with some threats to report us. Okay. Now, lets think about it: the only reason for someone in this situation to report securities for killing terrorist who is driving 1 meter away from them is having a brain damaged enought to think that... securities can not shoot terrorists, even when terrorist is chasing them.
   Do i blame that pplv kid for thinking that way? Well, i do. But then you look at 10-days-response ("They will be warned. Thanks for reporting!"), and you are understanding what i know for a very long time: the very same retards are making fake reports while making their very first weak attempts to bend the rules how they want today, the next day they will become the very pretending to be a good guys admins that are bending this rules today.

Yes, it has happened that reports get buried underneath newer reports, and that admins look over them. But eventually, the report got handled, as well as all of the other ones. Every forum report we had until now has been handled, and if we forget about one, please don't hesitate to contact us to look into it. Sometimes they get overlooked, and I apologize for that.

About the contents of the report, I'll point back to the discussion about the duty rule. Yes, it's too vague right now, and there's a lot of room for interpretation. For a lot of the reports about duty, in most cases there won't be enough proof to actually do something, and if we do something, it will just be a warning in most cases. So, we need to find a solution for the duty rule to make sure this doesn't happen again in the future.

   Well, at this point i want to remind you that we do not have rule or rules to report fakereporters. And the fact that this rule do not exist is a additional stimulus for them to keep fakereporting. As i said before, the mental state of this community is completely shit, so the fact this fule do not exist is unacceptable.
   Also, i am pointing you attention, that since many many rules are working only with "recorded video", it is another field for fakereporters. Very simple example that happened with me personally: on the old ptp there were a "no fight at armor spawn" rule with addition "do not jump on the enemy car`s roof at the armor spawns". So, when someone you know as Rev in the armor spawn jumped on a roof of a car that was full of terrorists and was killed by me after 2 warnings to leave, i was banned, because the only part he shown to admins was the very last seconds of his life. And when i arrived to another armor spawn and some newbie started to shoot me and was killed by me with a backfire, he again shown the very last seconds and said that i was the one who attacked that newbie. It is obvious that such a miserable shits like rev are using the fact that the only way in ptp to make rules work for non-admins is to have instafrapsing.
   And an ability of admins to solve and "read" different situations by only watching a video samples is a very big question. At leaast for me. Because in that situation it was very easy to check the logs and understand that rev is nothing but a liar. But admins were too lazy to do it. And in the second topic i will show you that they are still lazy to do it. Too lazy to walk a "long way", and too ignorant to not walk a "short one".

   So, when the only way for your "rules" to work is to have all-time frapsing (which is not an option for some players), and at the same time it is a hint for those mothersfuckers to fakereport someone by editing their videos, and at the same time you can not report both retards for fakereporting AND admins for doing their job like assholes, how exactly do you think rules will protect anyone? It is obvious that there should be a rules against fakereporters and admins.

We will never have a rule about fake reporting here. The main reason for that is, in the old server, that is one of the rules that was abused a lot, and it eventually resulted in people not reporting at all anymore, or being scared to report anyone. First of all, it will depend heavily on admin interpretation again, to decide which reports are fake or not, and if it was intentionally fake to get the other person punished, or if the person truly believes you broke the rules and just doesn't know the rules very well. Since you seem very heavily against rules that require any kind of interpretation by admins, I wonder how you'd see a rule like this being implemented.

So, if there's not enough context, and we can't know for sure if the person broke the rules or not by the video or screenshot they provide us, we will simply not take any action. These kind of reports are also why we constantly work on systems to enforce rules or prevent them from being broken, rather than having to report a player breaking a rule afterwards.

[Jonne]

   Another question is why there is no rule against admins which making a "wrong" decisions. I said it at the very beginning of this topic, now lets look at it "closer".

   Admins are totally refusing to take any kind of responsibility. And why not? I mean, if there are no rules to keep them on a leash then there is no formal reason for them to take responsibility. (I am pointing your attention on this word, "formal". Keep it in mind. I will explain it later.)
   Lets not forget that when someone is requesting for unban, they, admins, require from this "someone" to admit his faults. And they force him to do it in front of all community.
   But when it comes to admins, even IF it obvious that they did "wrong", they are not taking any kind of responsibility. They are not making a single step in front of a community to admit their faults (which is nothing but an act of hypocrisy). They are hiding behind "high level" admins to avoid any kind of responsibility and consequences. I will show you the absolute facts of this statements in the second topic, but you can witness it even here, in first topic (in some examples i have made here).
   So, it is the first thing for them to do, not taking responsibility. They will lie, ignore and do everything just to not admit their faults.

   Back to our example:it is obvious for me, that i CAN shoot terrorists as security when they are coming "close" to me. The funny fact is that reports where i am involved... Well, that reports are taking very very long time to deal with for admins. Which makes me think that behind an admin (i mean the one who is formally dealing with it) there are another admins that know about every single topic and every single decision that admin is doing/posting. And that makes me think that it is not only Carg to take response for this topic. Probably, it is exactly how every single admin is understanding this situation, and Carg is nothing but a messenger.

   But if you think that this is the end, i remind you his last words: "They will be warned. Thanks for reporting!". I can say only for myself, not for the second security. I was NOT warned. Not in forum by pm, not in that topic, not via pm in game or mail.
   And you know what? I am looking in the past and there were maaaany topics with "solod will be warned". And i do not think there was any when i was actually "warned". And it is not surprise for me that i was not warned. Because if you "warn" someone, you need to explain reason, and the reason in this very situation is that security... can not shoot terrorist?

   So, this "They will be warned. Thanks for reporting!" was adressed to that pplv kid, he was waiting 10 days for this Solod`s punishment, and until this very day he is thinking that i was punished. When i was not.

   So, a very, very very small example (40 secs video and not-even-10-words-response from admin), but so much statements:
1. Obvious fakereporting to "punish" in-game "enemies".
2. Abusing rules by admin/admins to "solve" problems. Ignore, lie, close the topic - this is how they are doing IT.
3. Lie. Lie to fakereporter. Lie to every single ptper that was looking at that topic.
4. Lie. Lie at every similar situation. Post something and do nothing.

There are rules against abuse, not against wrong decisions in general. If they knowingly make a wrong decision, that's what we call abuse. But more often than not, these "wrong decisions" you're talking about are just mistakes, with no malicious intentions. We're not going to start punishing admins and mods for every single mistake they make, or we'd run out of admins pretty quickly. Most of the people we promote also have no experience at all, so they have to learn a lot in a short time. Expecting them to not make any mistakes at all is just unrealistic.

Admins and mods report to us, the level 5s. If there's a dispute between a player and an admin, we will get the stories from both sides, and we will make a decision based on that. I agree it looks better if they publicly take responsibility for their actions and explain them, but, especially for newer admins, I understand the reasons why they don't always want to do that.

Carg replied to the report 7th of August. The first time you joined again after that report was made was the 2nd of October, so I don't think you can really blame him for forgetting about it. Also, a warning is not a punishment.

   Another example i want to discuss. https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=2425.0
   The situation was next: president landed on the SF`s stadium roof with helicopter, 2 civils were shooting him with sniper rifles from the hill, so i rammed them with a rustler and killed after a fight. Then i went to armor spawn at SF stadium to refill armor, city wok arrived there at the same time with 15 hp and i DB`ed him.
   So, now lets look at Carg`s 1st post in that topic. He is saying that killing that civs while they were shooting president was not my duty. And he is pointing my attention that i do not understand duty rule. Now, lets look at city wok`s next post, when he is saying that killing him and pranesh on the hill was totally OKAY and was my duty, because they were shooting president.
   So, do i really the one who do not understand duty by killing someone who is trying to kill president, or is it you, Carg, the one who is interpreting this rule like he wants (and i do not even understand how can you twist this rule to tell me not to kill someone who is trying to kill president)?
   
   But lets check Carg`s first post part by part again. And i quote Carg`s words: "First of all you were near the stadium armour without rustler when you broke the rule, the exact time of breaking the rule was when you decided to chase civilians that were far away from the presidentey made). "
   This is a LIE. On his post city wok already said it. But let me explain it. You are saying that i was at armor without rustler and then i "decided to chase civilians that were far away from the president". I am saying that i rammed them with rustler when they were shooting president with sniper rifles. And that civs are proving my point.
   But let me ask you one question: you have checked the report after you received it. And you received it AFTER civs made that report. And they made it after i attacked them. So, how exactly do you know what i was doing BEFORE they made a report (you are saying i was at armor spawn without rustler)?
   Another lie is, and i quote: "(Pranesh & City_Wok, not that far, but still it wasn't your duty, because when I checked the report they made, you were chasing them with 100 health and they were running from you even when they had full armour and health)".
   I was not "chasing" them. We were fighting close to their infernus on the hill. On the exactly point from where they were shooting president.

   Next thing is: right after i killed pranesh on the hill i went to armor spawn, and wok arrived at the same time and parked his car just 1 meter away from my car, so i spent 1.5 seconds to db him. And president was not "at the total opposite side of the map". He was exactly where he was 1 minute ago - on the SF stadium`s roof, 10 meters above armor spawn. And the reason why city wok is saying that i have "difficulties understanding when it's duty or not" is exactly the same as pplv retard`s in the previous topic: wok is thinking that security can not shoot someone who is coming close (1-3 meters away) to security even if 1 minute ago he was trying to kill president. So no, Wok, it has nothing to do with "so I let you without shooting you", wok, it is all about you interpreting duty rule like you want, while this rules has not a single word that secutiry can not shoot someone who is trying to kill president.

Again, this comes down to your first post, the duty rule should be changed to prevent cases like this.

   But hey, we have another "hero", and that is JHON and his last post on that topic.
   Look at that shit. He is saying, and i quote: "I cannot be sure whether the warning was correct or not. So, if you were doing your duty at that time, it probably wasn't meant for you.". So, thats why he closed that topic. Nice reason. But guess what, JHON. You actually CAN be sure that warning was adressed to me, because if you will be so kind to spend some seconds and read what YOUR admin Carg said in his very single post in the topic, you will see it was all about ME.
   So, JHON, now go here https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=77.0 and read the very first part of your message, when you are saying, and i quote: "We left because we were tired of the way PTP was being run. Pretty much everyone got ignored". If it is not ignoring, then what is it? Ignoring me, your own admin, AND using you own ignorance to "solve" this concrete situation.

   But hey, WHAT A NICE MANEUVER from JHON. We will just warn EVERYONE with that spam all over your screen, so when someone will come to us with questions, we will say that, and i quote: "it probably wasn't meant for you". Now, lets point own attention on that "message". Quote from JHON is: "The big messages in the middle of the screen (announcements) get shown to everyone in the server, they're not aimed at one person specifically."
   What if i tell you, JHON, that every single time admin is using this "announcement", it is an ABUSE and breaking gameplay of overy single person who is receiving it. When i am flying in a rustler and some admin is sending this "message" to "someone else", but i am receiving it too, so that 1-2 seconds when i am losing control of rustler to close your fucking message are leading me to CRASH MY FUCKING RUSTLER INTO THE BUILDING.
   Why among all of your fucking "admin community" there is NOBODY to understand it? When i already said it MONTHS AGO, and you, JHON, said that it is not good to send this messages because they do not let you play, and now you are saying that you solved this situation by.... SENDING THIS SPAM TO EVERYONE AT THE SAME TIME? Maybe, maybe you are doing it because every single admin is already stucked into that state of mind when abuse is becoming a reflex?

   So, statements from that topic are:
1. Another fakereporting to "punish" in-game "enemies".
2. Abusing abuse from admin/admins to "solve" that problem. Again, ignoring, lie, close the topic - this is how they are doing IT. AGAIN.

That's not how quotes work. You're putting 2 unrelated sentences next to eachother and calling it a "quote". In the first part of your quote ("I cannot be sure whether the warning was correct or not."), I was replying to you. In the second part ("So, if you were doing your duty at that time, it probably wasn't meant for you."), I was replying to LPCOLTER. You were talking about 2 different things. To you, I was talking about the duty warnings, the pop up boxes (This one: https://i.imgur.com/qN3g7Sq.png). That type of warnings is only visible to 1 person, the person we address the warning to. To LPCOLTER, I was talking about the announcements, the big letters in the middle of the screen (These: https://i.imgur.com/xdHhuDv.png). These announcements are visible to every single player in the server, they are not addressed to anyone specifically. We mostly send these from IRC, when we notice there's been a number of reports on securities not doing duty, and we're not able to come ingame. That's when these announcements are sent, just to remind the securities to do their duty. They do not have any other impact on you, they do not prevent you from doing anything, it's just the same type of message as the "... minutes left" announcements.

   Another big question to admins: look at the following sentence and try to figure out what is wrong with rules. "Crime And Punishment". If you did not realised it (and you did not, because everything i said before probably flew through our empty head), i will tell you what is wrong: your fucking rules have not a single word about "punishment". Now, open Criminal Code of your country and tell me, why there ARE concrete punishment under EVRY FUCKING LAW? Why do you let another chance for every single admin to do whatever he wants (first example with pplv kid is a good example HOW they are doing it, i mean inexistent warning)?
   No punishment norms = another way to twist the rules. And here i want to remind you that thing, "admit what you did in front of community". Because they will not unban you if you do not admit it. And in the rules there is no statement that you MUST do it. There is no words about "admin is giving moral lesson to a rulebreaker" in the rules. So, i guess, this part exists only in admin`s head.
   And of course there is no punishment norms for admins (how can you have them when you do not even have rules for admins?).

We do have standardized ban lenghts for rules people often get banned for. There's standardized ban lenghts for different types of hacks, death evasion, and teamblocking. There's not a lot of other rules that show up in our ban section often. We also have warning systems for different rules, to make sure everyone gets warned/punished in the same way. Rules that are not included in these systems are often rules we usually just warn for, and rarely result in a punishment of any form.

   Another thing i want to discuss is when admins are saying something like "go report cops that do not kill terrors", "go report admins when they are wrong". Now, they are reading this words and still do not understand a shit. Even after this whole topic. So, i will explain it again. When admin is telling me to report someone, and i am looking at the rules and realising that he is literally asking me to REPORT SOMEONE FOR BREAKING NONEXISTENT RULE.
   Do you remember when i said that word, "formality"? Formality is something that can give us guarantees against admin`s abuse. And even if you will see report section, you will see THERE IS A FUCKING FORM to make a report. So, how do i follow the formality in this case?

I don't really understand the part about the form, or what's confusing about it. If you see an admin abusing, then you report them. You can do that in the report section, or if the form is confusing, you can always just send me a PM explaining what they did wrong. If they're making up new rules, please also report that.

   Now, there are FORUM rules too. https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=1015.0
   If you were reading careful everything above, you can extrapolate it to this rules too: deciding what is "off-topic" etc is all about admin`s mind.
   Example is here: https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=1937.15
   When things went pretty "nasty", admin (he was not even a part of discussion) just came and closed it as "nonsense topic", and i can say that i was ready for some interesting shit. Normally, on forums you can see your deleted posts and reasons why they were deleted. But as far as our admins do not feel a need to respect the rules, i guess it is okay to delete/close posts/topics just because.

I think it's only normal we have forum rules, and I think the "off-topic" rule is used in a lot of forums. Yes, it again depends on admin interpretation, but I don't think there's a system or a better definition that completely avoids any interpretation. I don't think locking that topic was a mistake, he addressed every point the topic started made and that topic was basically becoming an "I believe he's guilty/not guilty" type of thing. We're not going to start a discussion topic about every single ban, so people can say if they believe he broke the rules or not.

   I guess it is time to end this topic, and i will end it with this: https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=2542.0
   And i quote: "I went for a car to the security spawn and they attack me". I WENT TO THE SECURITY SPAWN AND WAS ATTACKED BY.... SECURITY. PLEASE PUNISH THEM.
   I already told you that degeneration on this gamemode is a reality. Our reality. It was started by idiots that were themselfs a "rubberducks" back in 2011. They are not only desecrated a legacy of the most iconic admin of PTP of all times, Rubberduck, but started this movement to our today`s point, when newbs are making reports for "being attacked by security on their own spawn".

That's also why we didn't take any action, the report was lacking all context.

but honnestly, some admins and mods are abusing.

Please, if you think anyone is abusing, let me know. Either by making a report in the report section, or you're always free to PM me what happened, so I can look into it.

1. Admins do not know their own rules.
2. Admins do not respect their own rules.

I can't say if some admin doesn't know em, or he just refuses to obey the rules. But I've seen some retarted fuck was leaking private infos before, such as revealing other player's messages/identities. Whoever was that he is a pussy.

Please PM me more details about this, so I can look into it. If something like this happened, we will investigate it and take appropriate action.

For eg some guy got banned for aimbot for 2 months and the other got banned for 1 year
Why?
Because different admins were handling the Appeals

Where do you see something like that? As I've already explained, we have standard punishments for these types of hacks. For aimbot, the first time you get banned will be 2 months. You'll get a second chance, but if you waste that there will be no unban anymore. If you see different punishments, it's mostly older topics that were before we introduced the standard punishments. Right now there shouldn't be any difference in punishment anymore, depending on which admin takes your case.

[Jonne]

ah, i remember a topic like this made by him in the old server. Good times.

Yes, and if you remember them as good as i did, you remember, that when i came back in 2016 to the ptp after 3 years and realised there is a new admin Lacerta, i started to reporting him and shitposting with him, and when i`ve shared that he is even "sending pms to me with threats", not a single person, NOT A SINGLE ADMIN HAVE TRIED TO PROTECT ME. NOBODY. And another fact is that EVERY SINGLE ADMIN THAT WAS ON THE OLD PTP, HE IS STILL BE ADMIN HERE. So, do not even try to tell me that i am "wrong". If i am the only one here to tell the truth, I WILL BE THE ONLY ONE. Even if i am nothing but a "retarded level 0 player".

You have no idea what happened internally in the old PTP. He's a big part of the reason we left PTP and started Plan B. We've tried everything in our power to get rid of him, but since he was a friend of Tenshi, it was impossible. Every admin that came here from PTP knew that what he was doing was wrong and often complained about it, but also realized there was simply nothing we could do. Nobody of Tenshi's "personal admin team" ever were admin here and they never will be.

The Spawnkilling rule
Personally, I don't see no problems here. It is impossible to deal damage to the person who is under the spawn protection. We have another scriptwise restriction: you can't deal damage with ranged weapons if you are under the spawn protection youself. But it is a different thing! I don't see a contradiction here. As I said many times, I like the tendention of preventing the possibility of rulebreaking rather than punishing for the consequences. The soulless script is equally fair to everyone. Ideally, the rulebreaking would be totally impossible, and no admins nor bans would be needed.

I am not sure if you read my topic.
Let me explain it to you one more time.
Months ago, when i made a report about "stephanie", i reported next thing: i was killed many time when i was under spawn protection. Then, Jonne came and shown me a logs. In that logs you can see that somehow i lost my spawn protection. And i know that i was standing still in the spawn. So, it was a bug and i know that i was not only person who reported that shit. For that time i was not even know that stephanie WAS UNDER SPAWN PROTECTION TOO. So, that was not only a abusing 1 bug, but 2 bugs.
1 bug was about when someone lost his protection without leaving the spawn.
2 bug was (and we still have it) when someone who is under spawn protection is doing a damage.

Now, lets get back to "present time".
You, admins, have made a system, and this system has 2 directions to work:
1. Nobody can do a damage to you when you are under spawn protection (standing in the spawn area).
2. You can not do a damage to anyone when you under spawnprotection. (you even receive a message when you are trying to attack, that "NO DAMAGE WHEN YOU ARE UNDER SPAWN PROTECTION").

Now, we all know that you CAN do a damage when you are under spawn protection by ABUSING a bug ("melee weapons" bug). I am pointing your attention that it is NOT a GTA SA bug or SAMP bug.
It is a PTP bug. So, when you look at "no bug abusing" rule, even if there is no full list of ALL GTA SA AND SAMP BUGS, it is obvious that this bug is not allowed, because there is no logic for ptp scripter to create this bug on purpose.

So, i do not know if it is a surprise for you, but 90% of all vips and admins ARE CONTINUOUSLY BREAKING TWO RULES: RULE ABOUT BUG ABUSING AND RULE ABOUT SPAWNKILLS.

I was not aware that there was a bug causing players to lose their spawn protection without leaving the spawn zone. Again, if you experience this bug, please make a screenshot and post it to the bug reports section, so I can look into it and know what's causing it. I'll add a message at the exact moment you leave the spawnzone (It will look like this: "* You have left your spawnzone, your spawn protection will run out in 5 seconds."), so you know when you left the zone. If you're still inside the zone if that message pops up, make a screenshot and post that to the bug reports section.

The Spawnkilling rule

Now, let me finish with this one.
My point is: the point of this system was "to divide everyone to immortals without damage and mortals with damage". Now, JHON said that he CAN NOT disable melee weapons. So, basically he created a "system" with a "bug", and since he "can not deal with this bug", he will just ignore it (or allow it, or call it however you want).
So, what he really did is nothing but a "immortals with damage". Now, admins do not want to accept a fact that this is a bug, because like i said before, we have no determination of what a "bug" is.
IMO when JHON is saying that he "can not deal with melee weapons", that means that he WANTS TO, but he CAN NOT. And vips and admins are using this "JHON can not" to get free kills. So, they just covering their behavior behind this "JHON can not".

About the second "bug" (players being able to deal damage while under spawn protection). This is not a bug at all, I don't know where you got that from. There is no message that says "NO DAMAGE WHEN YOU ARE UNDER SPAWN PROTECTION", only a message that says that your bullets are disabled under spawn protection ("[WARNING] You are still under spawn protection, your bullets will not have any effect until you leave your spawn zone."). Also, we're not trying to divide players in mortals with damage and immortals without damage (we only disabled the bullets for civilians, any other class can still deal damage under spawn protection). We disabled the bullets to solve a very specific issue (https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=1281.0), and since just disabling the bullets almost completely solved said issue, and due to the difficulty of disabling melee weapons, we decided to not go any further (thus allowing the melee weapons). Nothing changed to the rules after that, it was only a scriptwise change (your bullets are disabled). I think I already explained this in some detail in the report you made.

Yes, weapons are disabled now on the civilian spawn, but we did this to counter people sniping from the civ spawn, while they couldn't be harmed (I'll explain this in detail in a future update topic). We can't disable non-bullet weapons, and since those weapons aren't that much of a problem (since you have to be up close to use the weapon anyway, you can't really exploit your spawnprotection like that), this is allowed.

>We can't disable non-bullet weapons, and since those weapons aren't that much of a problem (since you have to be up close to use the weapon anyway, you can't really exploit your spawnprotection like that), this is allowed.
This is allowed? What actually is allowed? To buy chainsaw for 20$ and kill someone when you are immortal?
I can not even perceive it because it is non-existence addition to non-existence rule.
And what actually is allowed, that she is killing me in the spawn while she is immortal? Again, she was immortal. As you said, spawn protection is all about dividing players to immortals without damage and mortals with damage. And when you do damage and you are immortal - it is a bug abusing of this protection system.

Yes, you're allowed to kill someone while you're immortal. Whether you want to do it with a 20$ chainsaw or a free dildo is up to you. If you don't want to be killed by someone who's immortal, I suggest staying away from the spawnzone once you've lost your spawnprotection.

To conclude this, you've brought up some great points about the rules and we'll have to clarify those and search solutions to clear them up and limit the amount of interpretation needed. As for the comments on our staff team, yes, some mistakes were made and some situations could have been handled better, but I don't think there are any malicious intentions behind it. Looking at the complete picture and judging by all the work they do, I still think our staff team is doing a great job. To the people who are saying the admins are corrupt or abusive, I encourage you to make a report or PM me why you think so, so we can do something about it. This server isn't perfect, and it probably never will be, but we're trying to improve it every single day and there's a lot of people giving up their free time trying to achieve this.

[LPCOLTER]

So Jonne, doesn't that guy who got banned for something which deserved less punishment needs a reimplementation on his ban tenure?
What happened in the past is history true, but that guy is still suffering.

[Crash]

Friauf,and many other admins knew my history on this server. I've been really pain in the ass,harassing players and evading thousand of bans. I know that what i did in the past is wrong. But what's made in the past,stays in the past. Nobody,can change it. I'd like to thank  staff team for dealing with cheaters and rulebreakers as best as possible (equal and fair). Also,they are quick and effective when dealing with them. In game or not,some of them respond to a report in 5-10minutes..
Also,the new "mods" are great addition to the staff team. They are all mature and fun to talk with.
Thank you ladies and gentleman.
Have a nice day.

[SoLoD]

I AM NOT FINISHED WITH THIS TOPIC YET.

You know, JHON, you are very interesting person. You are spending time to read all that 30 kB of text (and whole topic), you are analyzing what i am talking about, you are making detailed response. But, a very big BUT: you are not giving me direct answers. And direct answers is why i`ve made this topic.
So, i will help you and myself. I will ask direct questions, i will make them bold, so, you need just to read my arguments, copy that questions and give me direct answer.

>it's not formally written down anywhere that you have the right to make a report against an admin, but it's also not formally written down anywhere that you do not have the right to report an admin.
I do not understand what makes you to write such a bullshit statement. We do not have rules that you can or can not report a players with a stupid nickname, or player with too high or low skill, or anything else. So, you are saying, that i can go to report section and report someone for that reasons? No. Why? Because there are no rules i mentioned. So please, WE CAN NOT REPORT ADMINS. FORMALLY.
And i do not understand your problem, you can not make rules for admins, so there will be actually a formally reason to make a report. What is the problem with adding this rule?

>Anyway, we will make this more clear in the report section, so people are aware of this.
A little pause here. Why i am making so "late" response? Because i know that time will prove MY words, not YOURS. And this is first example. Tell me, is it hard to add "admins" to a report section? 1 fucking word? Because i a looking at report section and last modify of main post is dated before this topic. So, where is this aware?

>but most rules were kept the same as in the old PTP server
Keep it in mind, we will come to this quote later.

>So, it's good you mention this, so we can review and update the rules to match with the updates we've made along the road, and make sure the rules are the same ingame, on the forums, and on the website.
Looks like you CAN NOT. More than 2 months. Can you actually show me a result of your (you and admins) brainstorm about updating rules? You are saying that you wanna make all rules the same, but do i actually will see it now? I didn`t check it, it is not that hard to do it, so, Is it done?

Now, i want to tell you (or clarify, because i do not think that you understand it) something about rules.
You are not an admin of a regular gamemode. This gamemode has some distinctive characteristics. We have teams, that teams should play in a very specific way. For example, securities. How do you tune such a gamemode? The answer is very simple: with rules. Rules are something that determines this gamemode. It is a fucking BASEMENT.
Now, second most important thing in this server is admins. Their only duty is to keep this rules "unbroken".
I can see that you are doing updated, changing this server etc. But mostly you are just fixing bugs.
So, the question is: do you have an understanding that rules are the most important thing for this gamemode?. Because i have this understanding. You can not allow yourself to have "broken" rules and at the same time admins and community that is not mature enought to play with "dignity" (or whatever you call it, but i think you understand what i mean).
And if you have this understanding too, then why you and your admins are not doing a single shit about it?

>I agree we should do something about the security rule.
What have you done with this rule during this 2 months? Can you share with me your progress?

>from the moment we've started this server, we've been trying to find ways to make the rules more clear, and limit the amount of "grey zones" the rule has and thus limit the amount of admin involvement, exactly to prevent these kind of situations where admins have different interpretations of rules and actions.
You FAILED. If you do not beliave me, then lets see at that example where terrorist was killed by me after he chased me. If you are trying to remove "interpretation", then why every single mod/admin has a different vision about this example. Some of them are saying that i was wrong, another - that i was right, some of them are saying that rule is ok, some - thaat it is not ok. And it is not just a single example. Every single time gamemode "touches" this rule, we have nothing but "interpretation" from admins. And what is even more important - DIFFERENT interpretations from DIFFERENT admins on the same situation.

>A lot of updates and systems we've implemented are focused on this.
Can you give me examples? You do not need to copypaste them, just tell me what direction you`ve tried (about duty rule).

>but for the moment I do not know what the best solution would be.
So, you are saying that /duty problem is old and it IS a problem. It is older than this topic. And you can not solve it. Then my qeustions is: why you did not make a discussion in the forums, why you did not make a statement that this should be fixed because it is a primal problem?. And i do not mean a regular suggestion by a regular player, this should be done by YOU. And not now, but 2 years ago.

Now, the part that was ignored by you:
Stephanie. You are saying that as long as we have "broken" rules, admins should "fix" them by judging people with their own "interpritaation". So, you are giving an extra power to people to solve this problem. I do not wanna complain about this "solution". But i need to ask (and Stephanie will be an example): why are you giving this power to a people with 0 ptp and samp skills? How exactly they should "judge" people for breaking ptp rules (duty) or samp (bugs cheats etc) if they have no experience?

>I think it's very clearly stated which bugs we will punish for.
No, it is not. Not for me, at least.

>But, any bug that's not explicitly forbidden, is allowed.
I am going to go to a beginning of this topic and bringing this your statement: "but most rules were kept the same as in the old PTP server". Because you see, in the old PTP server ALL BUGS WERE BANNED (lets say, in 2009). Sometimes admins were trying to allow them, but the rule was very simple: bugs are not allowed. All of them (i was banned many times, so i know what i am talking about).
Now, lets see on your rule. In the game: no bug abusing (cbug, 2shoot, bugging into classes, glitching). In the forums: No bug abusing (list of allowed, not allowed bugs).
The statement that rule is the same as on old server is not true with this one. On the old server i was banned, for example, for MTB jumping bug, even when i was just riding around the map as civil. And when i see "no bug abusing" as main words in this rule, logic tells me that everything is banned. And if you will look at forum version of this rule, it looks like that your just talking about "weapon bugs". And when you look at in-game version, what is really the point to say "no bug abusing", if you only want to ban 4 bugs. Because when people in samp see "no bug abusing", they will think about ALL bugs.

>I also don't think anyone was punished for bugs that aren't listed there.
As i said, i was banned many times on the old server, and if this rule is the same as it was on the old server, then... Well, it is not the same or everyone here only care about "weapon bugs".

>Rule number 3. No death evasion by any means or ways.
Again, this is the only thing you can see in the game. So, you are talking about "ANY means or ways", but then you are saying that some of them are allowed.
In the forums you can see "ANY means or ways" again AND a list of restricted "means or ways". But where is the logic? You are saying "ANY", and then you are making only a small list?

>On the other hand, I also think it's unrealistic to expect them to be professionnal at all times and not make any mistakes ever.
Do you wanna know what is REALLY unrealistic? When immortal VIP is killing another player. But am i wrong that you do not like that immortals who killing people? I think you said that you just can not fix this "antispawnkill system`s" bug. But let me ask you, is it really so hard to add one simple rule: "you can not kill/damage or be killed/damaged under spawnprotection"?.
Because you know, you are restricting "weapon bugs" from the server (and everyone can use bugs, theoretically), and at the same time you are making and allowing "for vips only" bug.

>If you see this, please make a report on the forums so we can look into this. Then we can check the logs to the best of our abilities to see if it matches up with your story, and take action if needed.
First of all, i know how your admins are "checking logs". So, this your "offer" is nothing but a joke for me. The only way to prove anything is instantly recording video. Not only "against" cheaters/hackers, but against your admins too.

>but I'm not sure how we could enhance this rule. (no map change forcing)
I can tell you how. How you can make normal rules instead of "interpretation" ones. You simply "listing" what is not allowed. And when someone will find "new" way, you will just add it to the list.

>Yes, we should work on clarifying that as well since not every admin is on the same page for this.
This is the one where your mod kicked player without a reason. Let me remind you that after this he came to this topic and said, well, that he has no instruments to solve this kind of situations. So, he has no rights. But he decided to take "action" and kick player.
I am not sure what do you mean when saying "clarifying THAT". So, the question is: is it a common thing for your mods/admins to do whatever they want to do?
And the second question is: do you understand that you are giving admins their "powers" to handle "broken" rules, and they are using their powers like this?. So, we came back to your "solution".

>You're allowed to share IPs of other servers in PM. Of course, if someone starts spamming advertisements for another server to everyone in PTP, then they'll get banned.
Can you make it more clear, you are not allowed to SPAM or posting ip even 1 time? Since there is no rule against "simple" spam, i think you have "antispam" system. So, i think that you mean player can not share ip (just posting it even 1 time in the chat). So, what is the problem with that? I am asking it only because it reminds me some "free-to-play" mmorpgs, where you can not even talking about other games.




Now, examples.
1st is this one https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=2004.0

>Yes, it's too vague right now, and there's a lot of room for interpretation.
Well, i want to hear your interpretation of this one. Because your admin do not want to explain how i`ve broke duty rule that time.

>For a lot of the reports about duty, in most cases there won't be enough proof to actually do something, and if we do something, it will just be a warning in most cases.
Let me explain you one simple thing. There are only two options: you are a rulebreaker or you are not. When someone is saying that "They will be warned", it is obvious, that "they" are rulebreakers. You do not need to "warn" them if they are not.

>We will never have a rule about fake reporting here.
Let me explain what i think about it. I do not want you to "scare" people from reporting. I just want you to punish people when it will be obvious that they are fakereporting to punish in-game enemies. And this time i am okay with "interpretation", because it will be obvious (with facts) for everyone if admin will do "wrong interpretation".

>So, if there's not enough context, and we can't know for sure if the person broke the rules or not by the video or screenshot they provide us, we will simply not take any action.
Let me tell you that story again. In the old server you were not allowed to jump on the roof of a car if that car was not yours. So, when cop is jumping (in the armor spawn) on the roof of infernus, and that infernus is full of terrorists, and after that terrorist is killing that cop, then cop is cutting the part where he is jumping on the roof and showing to admins that he was killed at the armor spawn, and then that terrorist gets ban.
Tell me, if that terrorist will show full video (if he have) and it will be obvious fakereporting, isnt it enought reason to ban cop?.
The same goes to a situation when terrors were trying to drive away from armor spawn, some newbie cop busted their tires, terrors killed that cop, and one piece of shit that was camping on the armor spawn, recorded that, "editing" his video and then he is showing only that part where terrors are killing cop, when it is obvious that he witnessed everything from the very start.
Yes, rev, i am talking about you, but you already know that, aren`t you?

>There are rules against abuse, not against wrong decisions in general.
Okay, now very importaant part. Basically, you are saying that when admin is doing wrong decision, he is doing it: on purpose or not.
So, you do not want to punish them if they are NOT doing it "on purpose". Even if i do not agree, because if we will take example when your mod kicked player without rights to do so, it is obvious that you will say that he did it without any "back mind".
What i really want to know, when it is obvious that admin is a liar or abuser and he is doing it on purpose, what is the punishment for that admin will be?.

>I agree it looks better if they publicly take responsibility for their actions and explain them, but, especially for newer admins, I understand the reasons why they don't always want to do that.
I do not understand their reasons. Because if they are right - what is the problem to tell their vision of situation? If they are wrong - what is the problem to take responsibility and at least say "sorry"?
And if admin is wrong, dont you think that player at least has right to know name of that admin? If admin did a wrong move toward player, it is very understandable right.

>Carg replied to the report 7th of August. The first time you joined again after that report was made was the 2nd of October, so I don't think you can really blame him for forgetting about it. Also, a warning is not a punishment.
You are right, i was not playing for a pretty long time. But, first of all, this is not the only one "warning" that nothing but an empty word, because admins do not warn anyone when they are saying so (at least me for sure).
I can not blame him, okay. But what about this warning? Why he do not "warn" me here, or via pm? Why he do not explain how i`ve broke that rule? Maybe you wanna do it instead of him?

>a warning is not a punishment.
You are not really right here. Warning means that i`ve broke the rule. I do not agree with that. I think that your admin is wrong here.
So, if you giving a "warning", don`t you need to explain to someone who broke the rule how exactly he did that? If i am correct, this is the point of "warning", to prevent breaking of this rule next time.
I am still waiting for my "warning" btw.




Another example https://planbserver.com/forum/index.php?topic=2425.0
>Again, this comes down to your first post, the duty rule should be changed to prevent cases like this.
No, no, JHON, not so fast. You are completele ignoring part where i am saying that your admin is a LIAR. I am doing it in public with arguments. And your admin is not responding at all. What do you think in my mind after that?
He is not "making a mistake", it is a "lie on purpose". Because when you are pretending to tell a truth, and your story has so much "holes", that you own story refutes itself (when he is pretending to know what i was doing BEFORE report), and words of other players (they reported me btw) refute admin`s story too, and after that admin is not responding in the topic, what do you think that means?
I can understand "misjudging", but i can not understand and i will not accept a direct lie and refusing to take responsibility.

>That's not how quotes work. You're putting 2 unrelated sentences next to eachother and calling it a "quote".
Okay, my fault. But i still do not understand why do i receive spam when i am not doing anything wrong.

But lets back to this example. After your admin`s first (AND LAST) post, i`ve claimed your admin as a LIAR, then you are coming and CLOSING TOPIC.
Can you explain your actions?
I know that your admin is a liar, i know that i did duty pretty well, and everything i get is your fucking "thanks for reporting"?

>We do have standardized ban lenghts for rules people often get banned for.
Excuse me, but did not you said that "rules are the same for everyone"? I do not know where are YOU looking at, but I can not see that "standardized ban lenghts" in YOUR rules.
If i can be punished for breaking your rules, isn`t it MY right to know HOW EXACTLY i will be punished? And how YOUR ADMINS will be punished if they are liars or/and abusers?

>If you see an admin abusing, then you report them.
No, i can not, but i will be able to report them if you will be so kind to add 10 words to your rules. Thank you.

>That's also why we didn't take any action, the report was lacking all context.
I can only hope that you understand why this kind of reports existing in PTP.

>You have no idea what happened internally in the old PTP.
I can only say what i KNOW. When Lacerta started to send threats to me via pm, and i`ve made it public, i do not remember anyone (including admins) who said a single word against it.
So please, do not tell me stories about "brave admins-underdogs who were fighting with Lacerta".

>Again, if you experience this bug, please make a screenshot and post it to the bug reports section, so I can look into it and know what's causing it.
If i experience BUTTHURT when playing ptp/staying on forums, and i will make a screenshot, is there a right section for it? Not sure if you wanna look at it tho.

>As for the comments on our staff team, yes, some mistakes were made and some situations could have been handled better, but I don't think there are any malicious intentions behind it.
Then i wanna see what you will say when i will make 2nd topic.

Thanks for your attention.

[SoLoD]

I am just wondering why this topic is not "interesting for you" anymore. Because for me it is still actual.