[To be added]LV and RC armour suggestion

[Altus_Demens]

Hello, PTPers!

At first, the original idea belongs to Mia. We've been talking about it for a while privately, now it's time for a public discussion.
I want to suggest to change the positions of the armour spawns in Las Venturas and Red County to make the maps more balanced and enjoyable. I'll review the other maps to show what I mean (except for NSA). If you understand it, or if you don't want to talk about the other maps, please, go directly at the end of the post.


Los Santos (map)
The terrorists have got western and eastern armour spawns to get armour safely; they can rush to the main one, but they will likely get involved in a war with cops. The cops mostly go to the main, but they can also rush east/west if necessary. The civilians prefer the eastern armour spawn. The safe routes to get armour always exist for all classes, and the terrorists cannot pick armour and attack the president at his spawn at the same time.

San Fierro (map)
Pretty much the same. The terrorists can use all three armour spawns keeping in mind that the main one is likely occupied by cops. The cops tend to stack at the main armour, but they have a nice route to the stadium one; civilians also like to use this one. Again, the terrorists cannot rush to the president without armour.

West Venturas (map)
After the seashore armour was added, it is quite balanced as well. Terrorists choose either the main or geyser armour spawns, whilst cops mostly attack after taking armour at the seashore one. Civilians can easily approach the geyser one if they take a rustler at the airport. The terrorists will always rush to the president with armour, but big rush distance compensates it.

Flint County (map)
The terrorists have the eastern armour and the cops have the Chiliad one if they want to take it peacefully; the main one is a place of endless fights. The civilians tend to go to the Chiliad one if there's a cropduster; the eastern armour is another good and mostly peaceful option. Besides, 3-4 cropdusters more on the field would be awesome - it is annoying to start your civilian life there without one.
The terrorists also attack the president fully armoured in all cases, but, again, the big rush distance helps the president.

Las Venturas (map)
The terrorists mostly go to the northeastern armour, as the main one is usually occupied by cops. All three spawns are convenient for the police, they can easily control the map. The civilians take armour at the southeastern one; they can also go to the main one too, but good relations with the regulars are desirable.
In terms of positioning, the president is far-far away from any action. The map is not too big, and the whole western part of the city doesn't contain a single armour spawn; the armour center of gravity is heavily shifted east. I find it wrong.

Red County (map)
The UFO armour is used only if the president decides to camp there. Going there on a boat is often not worth risk and time spent, as the boats are real atomic bombs in GTA, and the route from the terrorist spawn and the UFO is perfectly opened for snipers. The cops control both inland armour spawns; a very light effort is needed to cut the terrorists' routs to them. The civilians should either play a lottery of going to the main one, or drive through the whole map to reach the airport and its armour.


Now what I suggest:

Las Venturas (map)
I suggest to remove two eastern armour spawns and merge them to a single one which would be conveniet for the cops and civilians, but not really convenient for the terrorists (a screenshot). Finding a proper place in the western part of the city is a bit tricky as it would simplify the terrorists' job, but I guess the spot shown on the map would do the job as it doesn't lay on the line between the terrorists and the president spawn (a screenshot). Also, it would be hard to control for the police due to its remoteness. The president and his security might also find this spot useful.
If you don't want to replace the eastern armour spawn, I guess the northeastern one could be left untouched.

Code: [Select]

AddStaticPickup(1242, 2, 2622.5, 1824.5, 10.9, 0); // eastern LV
AddStaticPickup(1242, 2, 1336.0, 1153.8, 11.0, 0); // western LV

Red County (map)
I propose to eliminate the UFO armour. Indeed, it is a weird Tenshi's inheritance, we don't have pickups at the other camping places such as the carrier in SF or Area 69. Instead, let's replace it to the small house east from the terroists spawn (a screenshot): it would be convenient and useful both for terrorists and civilians. Besides, we'll probably see more action at the southeastern part of the map!

Code: [Select]

AddStaticPickup(1242, 2, 2351.5, -648.0, 128.0, 0);

What do you think? If you have any better ideas for the armour spawns places, please, feel free to share.

P.S. Since we talk about the pickups, I want to try to bring back the old topic after a year. In all maps but Flint County there are countless opportunities to restore your health due to numerous health pickups and vending machines. Check this map to see the built-in vending machines. I want to add a few to FC in accordance to this map as it is sometimes annoying that you have climb all the way up to the Chiliad or go to the remote eastern part of the map to restore your health if you don't want to join the main armour fight.

While voting, please, keep in mind that the scriptwise vending machines are already implemented and tested on mine & Mia's local server. If we decide that we need them here, I'll help Jonne to implement it in PlanB.

Thanks for your attention!

[Sebastian]

Las Venturas (map)
The terrorists mostly go to the northeastern armour, as the main one is usually occupied by cops

You got my point, its a bit annoying.
+1 for all your suggestions, i find it magnificent. 

[Hito]

 Finding a proper place in the western part of the city is a bit tricky as it would simplify the terrorists' job, but I guess the spot shown on the map would do the job as it doesn't lay on the line between the terrorists and the president spawn (a screenshot). Also, it would be hard to control for the police due to its remoteness. The president and his security might also find this spot useful.

This is better 

[YoMama]

I suggest to remove two eastern armour spawns and merge them to a single one which would be conveniet for the cops and civilians, but not really convenient for the terrorists (a screenshot).

I don't like that idea- I don't see any need for it, because there is a spawn at the southeast corner that you're leaving out. I don't particularly feel that the civilians need to be close to an armor spawn or have an easy time getting it at all, even though they already can get it pretty easily as it is. I think a spawn that close would lead to too much fighting, since there would basically always be civilians there.

Finding a proper place in the western part of the city is a bit tricky as it would simplify the terrorists' job, but I guess the spot shown on the map would do the job as it doesn't lay on the line between the terrorists and the president spawn (a screenshot). Also, it would be hard to control for the police due to its remoteness. The president and his security might also find this spot useful.

No. It's too close to the President's spawn. Who gives a shit who "controls" it, because that means almost nothing. I regularly ignore people from the opposite team, get my armor, and go, if I even give enough of a shit to get it. I tend to lose tires and a bit of the armor I just got, but if there were an armor spawn there, regardless of who camped out there, if I were a terrorist, it would make it extremely easy for me to repeatedly kill the President outside his spawn without losing too much. I don't like the idea of any armor spawns near the President in that map- he has basically three routes he can escape from his spawn with that are either very exposed, or so cramped that he's easily trapped. If anyone on the opposite team knows what they're doing, it's already pretty difficult to survive in the opening minute or so. Adding a spawn at the stadium would mean more armor campers hanging out between the President and the NRGs, and adding the one you suggested would block off the other escape route. Nobody on the protecting team will need it since there are closer spawns for all of them, if they need them (President and Security don't).

I propose to eliminate the UFO armour. Indeed, it is a weird Tenshi's inheritance, we don't have pickups at the other camping places such as the carrier in SF or Area 69. Instead, let's replace it to the small house east from the terroists spawn (a screenshot): it would be convenient and useful both for terrorists and civilians. Besides, we'll probably see more action at the southeastern part of the map!

The UFO armor actually doesn't bug me that much because it's one of the few things that the President can use to survive in RC. I don't like the idea of removing the UFO spawns, but I do think adding the armor spawn you suggest would be nice.

I generally dislike the idea of making armor access "easy" for multiple classes at once because it just means that people will fight there instead of doing their /duty (like the main spawns in FC and RC). If the armor spawns are distributed like SF, in such a way that it's equally inconvenient for all, distance-wise (not because they're overrun with boring people who think they're hot shit because they and four others with the same clan tag can kill one person with half their health who stupidly fights them), then the boring people start to disperse and more people actually play the game. I don't think there should be a rule against it, but I really don't feel that people who hang out at the armor spawns are playing the game as intended and I don't see why the armor should be placed in positions where they get a constant stream of people to fight.

[Altus_Demens]

This is better 

I don't like this place because it is right between the president and the terrorists. Because of a small rush distance, it would be too easy to attack the president.

No. It's too close to the President's spawn. Who gives a shit who "controls" it, because that means almost nothing. I regularly ignore people from the opposite team, get my armor, and go, if I even give enough of a shit to get it. I tend to lose tires and a bit of the armor I just got, but if there were an armor spawn there, regardless of who camped out there, if I were a terrorist, it would make it extremely easy for me to repeatedly kill the President outside his spawn without losing too much. I don't like the idea of any armor spawns near the President in that map- he has basically three routes he can escape from his spawn with that are either very exposed, or so cramped that he's easily trapped. If anyone on the opposite team knows what they're doing, it's already pretty difficult to survive in the opening minute or so. Adding a spawn at the stadium would mean more armor campers hanging out between the President and the NRGs, and adding the one you suggested would block off the other escape route. Nobody on the protecting team will need it since there are closer spawns for all of them, if they need them (President and Security don't).

I agree that it is probably too close. Still, the armour spawn should be located somewhere in the west part of the city. That's why I ask for fresh ideas.
And no, the "controlling" is important. If the cops decide to hunt someone in particular, they have got more options to do it in LV and RC, because it is generally easier for them to cut the terrorists' routes - I have shown it on the maps. "Losing a bit of armour" or "popped tyres" do not work if you are heavily outnumbered. That's why I want to relocate armour to give the terrorists more space. Fortunately, after adding the seashore armour in WV the cops do not face such problem.

The UFO armor actually doesn't bug me that much because it's one of the few things that the President can use to survive in RC. I don't like the idea of removing the UFO spawns, but I do think adding the armor spawn you suggest would be nice.

As I said, I don't like the general idea of adding pickups to the camping spots; also, it'd be more neat if all the maps (excluding the 'composite' NSA) contained exactly 3 armour pieces.

I generally dislike the idea of making armor access "easy" for multiple classes at once because it just means that people will fight there instead of doing their /duty (like the main spawns in FC and RC). If the armor spawns are distributed like SF, in such a way that it's equally inconvenient for all, distance-wise (not because they're overrun with boring people who think they're hot shit because they and four others with the same clan tag can kill one person with half their health who stupidly fights them), then the boring people start to disperse and more people actually play the game. I don't think there should be a rule against it, but I really don't feel that people who hang out at the armor spawns are playing the game as intended and I don't see why the armor should be placed in positions where they get a constant stream of people to fight.

Probably I expressed my thoughts incorrectly, but it looks like you misunderstood me.
My suggestion, contrary to your words, is directed to reduce the number of the 'unnecessary' fights for a vital demand of getting armour, and increase the dedication to the gamemode by giving the terrorists more freedom, more routes, more options.

Besides, talking about duty, you start to forget about the cops' duty! Surpisingly, our players tend to fulfill it well. Their duty is to distract the terrorists' force, to drain its power in unnecessary fights, to attrach the terrorists' fire on themselves, thus winning time for the president. So the mere existance of the cop armies, trying to punish those annoying Mia and Altus, and Mia and Altus, trying to balance between shooting them back, hunting them when they have a chance and killing the president, - that all goes along with the gamemode perfectly, imho.

[YoMama]

And no, the "controlling" is important. If the cops decide to hunt someone in particular, they have got more options to do it in LV and RC, because it is generally easier for them to cut the terrorists' routes - I have shown it on the maps. "Losing a bit of armour" or "popped tyres" do not work if you are heavily outnumbered.

If I'm heavily outnumbered at the armor spawn, I either go to a different spawn or I forgo armor entirely, because there are so many idiots at the armor spawn that I won't need it chasing the president. Either way, "controlling" the spawn only matters to me if it's in a location that is unavoidable (FC and RC).

As I said, I don't like the general idea of adding pickups to the camping spots; also, it'd be more neat if all the maps (excluding the 'composite' NSA) contained exactly 3 armour pieces.

I don't see any reason to limit it to 3 unless it means that it will be difficult to kill people because they're so numerous. As you said, the UFO armor is pointless most of the time, unless you're actually at the UFO. If you added your spawn idea, you'd have three "normal" armor spawns that are part of the contiguous map, and one special case spawn. Think of it like the health on the ship. It's already very difficult to survive RC, I can't see how pickups at the UFO hurt.

Probably I expressed my thoughts incorrectly, but it looks like you misunderstood me.
My suggestion, contrary to your words, is directed to reduce the number of the 'unnecessary' fights for a vital demand of getting armour, and increase the dedication to the gamemode by giving the terrorists more freedom, more routes, more options.

Besides, talking about duty, you start to forget about the cops' duty! Surpisingly, our players tend to fulfill it well. Their duty is to distract the terrorists' force, to drain its power in unnecessary fights, to attrach the terrorists' fire on themselves, thus winning time for the president. So the mere existance of the cop armies, trying to punish those annoying Mia and Altus, and Mia and Altus, trying to balance between shooting them back, hunting them when they have a chance and killing the president, - that all goes along with the gamemode perfectly, imho.

I don't see how your suggestion would reduce unnecessary fights in LV, or how armor is vital. There is a somewhat horrifying number of people who get on the back of my bike with a combat shotgun and claim to "need" armor, then are surprised when we end the map together without needing it at all. In RC, yes, your suggestion could help because it would add a practical spawn.

Maybe you feel like meaningless fights are in line with the gamemode, but I always feel like the cops and terrorists just cancel each other out with that shit. It's usually not surprising when I feel like there are 20 people in the server when there are actually 30-40, and I check the map and see that it's because there's a red/blue shitshow in the middle of nowhere.

[LPCOLTER]

No need -1

[IDAN]

-1

[Litteratus]

The armour spawns should be reachable on all maps without the enemies being able to block all the routes.

YoMama, you say that you can easily play without armour, because you are a part of the regulars' crew, you don't attack most of them and most of them don't attack you (unless it comes to attacking/protecting the president - the regulars will be full of apologies if they kill you anyways). Playing without armour is possible, yes, but it is much less enjoyable, you can't engage the cops forces in a direct combat. And it is another interesting side of the game (yes, you can blame me for misinterpreting duty and the whole gamemode at this point).

If you say that hunting and distracting the terrorists is not the cops' duty, then what is?

[LPCOLTER]

Do u even play these days?

[YoMama]

...you can easily play without armour, because you are a part of the regulars' crew, you don't attack most of them and most of them don't attack you (unless it comes to attacking/protecting the president - the regulars will be full of apologies if they kill you anyways).

I don't know where you're getting your information from, but this is not accurate. I actively encourage people to shoot me and a lot of people do- if someone still doesn't, then that's beyond my control. I'll still shoot them if I want or need to. I kill people who get mad at me for doing so all the time- the people who I actually respect know that it's part of the game. You could at least try to do a little research first- you could start with noting that I've never had a clan tag (something about playing a game where you kill people but having an arbitrary rule against killing most of your possible rivals never made sense to me).

Playing without armour is possible, yes, but it is much less enjoyable, you can't engage the cops forces in a direct combat. And it is another interesting side of the game (yes, you can blame me for misinterpreting duty and the whole gamemode at this point).

If you say that hunting and distracting the terrorists is not the cops' duty, then what is?

I don't engage the cops in direct combat because I don't find it enjoyable and I don't see the point. I also don't often need to, because, as I said, they're usually busy ignoring the president so they don't have an interest in me chasing him. I don't need armor to enjoy myself and play the game. As I said, I feel like most of the cops and terrorists just mindlessly cancel each other out while the gamemode moves on without them. I don't like playing this way. There's a difference between trying to "hunt and distract the terrorists" and "hunting and distracting terrorists who aren't even playing the gamemode to begin with and are easily distracted". The people who are actually threats to the president aren't even paying attention to the "distracting" cops unless they're actually trying to stop them from getting to the president. The cops who are actually helping to protect the president aren't usually assuming that the terrorists will come to them, either (as in the case of the armor spawn cops).

The armour spawns should be reachable on all maps without the enemies being able to block all the routes.

I agree with you- what's your point? It's not like it's ever impossible to get armor in any of the maps.

[Altus_Demens]

I'll still shoot them if I want or need to.

I guess that's what Litt meant saying that you are "a part of the regulars' crew". I assume - I don't know if it is true or not, don't get offended if it is not - that, if you meet a regular member of the enemy team at the armour spawn, you'd rather take armour and go peacefully, because you both know that you are regulars and you don't have to be afraid of each other, you'll fight later, near the president maybe. I find it wrong. The opposing team members should not explicitly agree on anything. Also, I personally like the way the game is being played now. We mostly have a few minor fights all over the map - one of them between the terrorists and the president, others - between the distracting and annoying cops and the terrorists, therefore those terrorists don't attack the president. If the game was only about chasing the president, it would become boring after a while, and I am glad that the gamemode, in the way it is implemented here, is multifaceted, interesting and unique. But it is a matter of a personal taste, let's leave it for another topic.


YoMama, do you have in mind any good place for armour spawn in the west Las Venturas? And what is your opinion about the vending machines?

[SoLoD]

A problem with hp and armor spawns is that none of today`s regulars is taking his hp and armor bars  seriously. They fell like, "i will stuck with other 3-4 regular, we will drive to the armor spawn, fight there, then we will go away to refill it and then we will come back and do everything again".

The best solution will be to remove all armor and hp points and place that "vehicles" for both armor and hp.
So, you will need to spend a time to get hp and armor. And, to push regulars to respect their hp/armor bars, we need to make a system, which will reduce an amount of giving hp/armor after each using of any vehicle. So, first you take 50 hp, then you go to armor and it gives you 45 armor.

[COBRA]

A problem with hp and armor spawns is that none of today`s regulars is taking his hp and armor bars  seriously. They fell like, "i will stuck with other 3-4 regular, we will drive to the armor spawn, fight there, then we will go away to refill it and then we will come back and do everything again".

The best solution will be to remove all armor and hp points and place that "vehicles" for both armor and hp.
So, you will need to spend a time to get hp and armor. And, to push regulars to respect their hp/armor bars, we need to make a system, which will reduce an amount of giving hp/armor after each using of any vehicle. So, first you take 50 hp, then you go to armor and it gives you 45 armor.

Well you got a good point about some regulars ruining the gameplay. But adding cars instead of pickups are not that good idea. So I'll stick to this topic's idea and will comment about it.

About adding some vending machines around LV & RC map; I don't think it's needed so badly. But it will be better if we have it.

[YoMama]

I'll still shoot them if I want or need to.

I guess that's what Litt meant saying that you are "a part of the regulars' crew". I assume - I don't know if it is true or not, don't get offended if it is not - that, if you meet a regular member of the enemy team at the armour spawn, you'd rather take armour and go peacefully, because you both know that you are regulars and you don't have to be afraid of each other, you'll fight later, near the president maybe. I find it wrong. The opposing team members should not explicitly agree on anything. Also, I personally like the way the game is being played now. We mostly have a few minor fights all over the map - one of them between the terrorists and the president, others - between the distracting and annoying cops and the terrorists, therefore those terrorists don't attack the president. If the game was only about chasing the president, it would become boring after a while, and I am glad that the gamemode, in the way it is implemented here, is multifaceted, interesting and unique. But it is a matter of a personal taste, let's leave it for another topic.

First of all, most of the time I don't bother with armor because I don't need it and don't feel like wasting my time. If I do get armor, I do prefer to just take it and leave, but not for the reasons you think. You seem to think that regulars don't shoot me at the armor spawns- they do. The only time I often avoid shooting anyone by mutual agreement is when we're both civilians and we're both working towards the same goal (killing or protecting). However, I don't go looking for fights or continuing them if I don't feel like they're relevant. Having a protracted battle in the middle of bum-fuck Egypt just so I can see a kill on the right hand side of the screen is not why I play in this server or my idea of fun. I usually avoid armor spawns where I see enemies on the radar. If I go in to get my armor, I get out, and leave. I'll often let somebody else on my team happily soak up bullets in vain while I grab my armor. If someone actually makes an attempt to stop me from doing my duty (in other words, they're not sitting at an armor spawn trying to bait people into fighting them and they actually chase me), then I will fight them regardless of who they are.

I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, but this scene is coming to mind. The first 20 seconds from 2:06 of this is analogous to my armor experiences- the race is the gamemode, and the Tusken Raiders moronically shooting at someone who doesn't give a shit like it matters are the armor campers, and the someone who doesn't give a shit is me. I ignore them because they are inconsequential. They make dumb noises after they've shot at the person who doesn't give a shit, and that's analogous to the "pussy", "chicken", and "scared?" messages I get in the mainchat when I drive away instead of getting distracted by fighting them in battles I'd probably lose. If they were part of the race (playing the gamemode), I'd maybe consider retaliating if it helped me.

I understand that you could misinterpret my style as being nice to the regulars, but you're missing that my goal when I play as a terrorist is not to kill police, it's to kill the president, and when I play as a protector my goal is to protect the president from people whose goal is actually attacking the president. I'm making a shameless plug for my flying guide here, but this is a good example of my style as a terrorist- I get the people who are trying to kill me to go away or avoid them to begin with, then I use the opening to get away and go after the president:

Slipping into the ship using thrust vectoring

(just for shits and giggles, note how Lewandowski calls me a rat because I don't continue fighting with him)

TL;DR:
The minor fights are just distracting people who are ready and willing to take the bait, while other people who are more dangerous to the president or terrorists anyway are going for the bigger picture instead of a small and inconsequential fight..

YoMama, do you have in mind any good place for armour spawn in the west Las Venturas? And what is your opinion about the vending machines?

I tried to think of a good place, but I couldn't come up with any ideas that wouldn't make the map significantly easier for the terrorists when it's already a hard one to survive in as president. There are three spawns- it doesn't matter if they're inconvenient distance-wise; it's definitely possible to get armor if it's really so important. I don't like the idea of adding vending machines either. A good portion of the game involves trying to stop people from getting to health areas before you can kill them. If you add more machines, you're making it difficult for people to know where those places are so they can cut people off or send backup. If you place health pickups, then they are easy to see on the map and handy for newbies and  more experienced players. However, I don't think that more health spawns are needed in most maps except maybe Red County.